• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Danny Manning Credibility Watch

donaldross said:
Last year we finished 10th and did not have a winning record in the ACC. We survived a horrific BC team in the ACC Tournament only to get dumped by Virginia Tech (our 8th straight non appearance in the ACC quarters). Then we road in to the NCAA play in game on the weakest bubble ever only to get man handled by a bad Kansas State team. All of this achievement happened with two players who then left early to make a ton of money playing pro ball.

Sorry, DCDeac, but I disagree that we had a good season last year. We improved greatly. But not acceptable.
Click to expand...

We didn’t beat UNC or Duke, folded at the end of several games, didn’t defend, and played like crap in the ACCT and NCAA. With John Collins and the other talent on that team, it wasn’t a good season. A good coach could have really done something with that team.
 
If the board of trustees had only convinced John Collins to stay, we'd be a lock for the sweet sixteen this year. Somebody deserves to get fired.
 
wakephan09 said:
If the board of trustees had only convinced John Collins to stay, we'd be a lock for the sweet sixteen this year. Somebody deserves to get fired.
Click to expand...

Instead, one of the board of trustees drafted him.
 
DCDeac loves to talk about how much we improved in 2016-17 and how it caught everyone by surprise, but completely neglects to talk about the basis of comparison. Truth is, Manning did a terrible job in 2015-16 that threw people off the scent of how much talent was returning, especially when asked immediately after that season. By the time 2016-17 actually rolled around, people were much more bullish. I believe the median win expectation in the pre-season poll was 18.
 
I'm a pretty simple fan I like coaches that win I don't like coaches that lose
 
donaldross said:
Last year we finished 10th and did not have a winning record in the ACC. We survived a horrific BC team in the ACC Tournament only to get dumped by Virginia Tech (our 8th straight non appearance in the ACC quarters). Then we road in to the NCAA play in game on the weakest bubble ever only to get man handled by a bad Kansas State team. All of this achievement happened with two players who then left early to make a ton of money playing pro ball.

Sorry, DCDeac, but I disagree that we had a good season last year. We improved greatly. But not acceptable.
Click to expand...

I actually agree with a lot of this. My posts after we lost to Kansas State were far from positive. We'd just beaten Virginia Tech before the tourney and should have won that game, shouldn't have been in the first four, and should have beaten Kansas State. There's an argument to be made for blaming Manning and another if you look at how Collins played defense to close out the year when he knew he'd likely enter the draft. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, and I don't see anyone (myself included) arguing that Manning is a master on the sideline.

But that's not the point here. The point is that whatever the judgment is overall of Manning's performance, it's either dishonesty or selective amnesia for the naysayers to act like getting an at large bid out of a loaded ACC last year wasn't a success based on the goalposts set by basically everyone who chimed in. Only the most optimistic on the board (not me) thought a bid was possible last year at the close of year 2, and yet that's what happened. Or back it up to when Manning was hired and look at expectations for year 3. And even if this year is proof to some that Manning is awful, it's ridiculous for so many of the ultra negative posters to act like they weren't 100% wrong about year 3 based on their own prognostications. And it's even worse to ridicule posters like CharlotteDeac who were far closer to being right on those threads than any of them.
 
DCDeac said:
I actually agree with a lot of this. My posts after we lost to Kansas State were far from positive. We'd just beaten Virginia Tech before the tourney and should have won that game, shouldn't have been in the first four, and should have beaten Kansas State. There's an argument to be made for blaming Manning and another if you look at how Collins played defense to close out the year when he knew he'd likely enter the draft. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, and I don't see anyone (myself included) arguing that Manning is a master on the sideline.

But that's not the point here. The point is that whatever the judgment is overall of Manning's performance, it's either dishonesty or selective amnesia for the naysayers to act like getting an at large bid out of a loaded ACC last year wasn't a success based on the goalposts set by basically everyone who chimed in. Only the most optimistic on the board (not me) thought a bid was possible last year at the close of year 2, and yet that's what happened. Or back it up to when Manning was hired and look at expectations for year 3. And even if this year is proof to some that Manning is awful, it's ridiculous for so many of the ultra negative posters to act like they weren't 100% wrong about year 3 based on their own prognostications. And it's even worse to ridicule posters like CharlotteDeac who were far closer to being right on those threads than any of them.
Click to expand...

To be fair, getting ridiculed by most posters usually confirms that I’m on the right side of the argument - so it has its perks!
 
DCDeac said:
I actually agree with a lot of this. My posts after we lost to Kansas State were far from positive. We'd just beaten Virginia Tech before the tourney and should have won that game, shouldn't have been in the first four, and should have beaten Kansas State. There's an argument to be made for blaming Manning and another if you look at how Collins played defense to close out the year when he knew he'd likely enter the draft. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, and I don't see anyone (myself included) arguing that Manning is a master on the sideline.

But that's not the point here. The point is that whatever the judgment is overall of Manning's performance, it's either dishonesty or selective amnesia for the naysayers to act like getting an at large bid out of a loaded ACC last year wasn't a success based on the goalposts set by basically everyone who chimed in. Only the most optimistic on the board (not me) thought a bid was possible last year at the close of year 2, and yet that's what happened. Or back it up to when Manning was hired and look at expectations for year 3. And even if this year is proof to some that Manning is awful, it's ridiculous for so many of the ultra negative posters to act like they weren't 100% wrong about year 3 based on their own prognostications. And it's even worse to ridicule posters like CharlotteDeac who were far closer to being right on those threads than any of them.
Click to expand...

I actually don't disagree with that. But I am now convinced Manning isn't the answer after watching him closely on the sidelines the last 4 years. He isn't smart and he doesn't know the rules. We have to move on.
 
I fail to see how exceeding very low expectations, when those low expectations are largely based on poor coaching, is somehow evidence of good coaching.
 
deac29 said:
I fail to see how exceeding very low expectations, when those low expectations are largely based on poor coaching, is somehow evidence of good coaching.
Click to expand...

Yep.

Expectations for Year 3 got higher as soon as we finally saw what Collins was capable of in 30 minutes. Then those expectations weren’t met.
 
donaldross said:
I actually don't disagree with that. But I am now convinced Manning isn't the answer after watching him closely on the sidelines the last 4 years. He isn't smart and he doesn't know the rules. We have to move on.
Click to expand...

And that's fine. He could be Dino 2.0 - even if he did get elite talent he'd just waste it. And I was a huge Dino detractor hence I think next year should be make or break for him since he'll have plenty of talent.

Personally the biggest problem I have with the "I know Manning isn't the answer" argument is this: let's say Dinos and Collins had decided to stay. Or last year we'd lost the Louisville game, played in the NIT, and then they both came back this year. By any reasonable estimation we'd be an easy tourney team this year in a worse ACC. We'd have talent on the way in to make up for Collins and Dinos heading out more on schedule. I can't imagine anyone making "fire Manning" arguments at that point. So it all boils down to how much you blame Manning for dealing with those early exits, or you just judge everything in a vacuum which in my opinion is an awful way to judge coaches.
 
The bubble is much, much stronger this year than last. That was the reason we got in the field of 68--not the league.

I already told you I wasn't judging in a vacuum. I judged with my own eyes and ears. He doesn't know the rules.
 
DCDeac said:
And that's fine. He could be Dino 2.0 - even if he did get elite talent he'd just waste it. And I was a huge Dino detractor hence I think next year should be make or break for him since he'll have plenty of talent.

Personally the biggest problem I have with the "I know Manning isn't the answer" argument is this: let's say Dinos and Collins had decided to stay. Or last year we'd lost the Louisville game, played in the NIT, and then they both came back this year. By any reasonable estimation we'd be an easy tourney team this year in a worse ACC. We'd have talent on the way in to make up for Collins and Dinos heading out more on schedule. I can't imagine anyone making "fire Manning" arguments at that point. So it all boils down to how much you blame Manning for dealing with those early exits, or you just judge everything in a vacuum which in my opinion is an awful way to judge coaches.
Click to expand...

Yes, the fact that you were a huge Dino detractor (who won 2/3rds of his games) and have since carried water for the two worst coaches in school history record wise has not been lost on any of us.
 
PhDeac said:
Yep.

Expectations for Year 3 got higher as soon as we finally saw what Collins was capable of in 30 minutes. Then those expectations weren’t met.
Click to expand...

I mean, ok. You're just saying you moved the goalposts. At least we can all agree on that.

The argument is that Manning doesn't get credit for raising expectations, because that credit goes to Collins? This assumes he was misused as a freshman and discredits Manning's recruitment of him as luck I guess? This just brings the thread full circle - you're spelling out the mental gymnastics you have to go through to discredit last year versus consensus expectations including your own - but heaping praise on NC State who hasn't even secured a bid yet is no problem. Got it.
 
Over the summer I posted that I wasn't going to be sold on Danny's reputation as a big man coach until I saw what he could do with SJM and Doral. My doubts have not been resolved in his favor by this season. If his recruiting success is predicated on that reputation, it won't take much to put in the ManningOut column next year. Sarr and Mitchell show potential but that is not the same thing as results.
 
DCDeac said:
And that's fine. He could be Dino 2.0 - even if he did get elite talent he'd just waste it. And I was a huge Dino detractor hence I think next year should be make or break for him since he'll have plenty of talent.

Personally the biggest problem I have with the "I know Manning isn't the answer" argument is this: let's say Dinos and Collins had decided to stay. Or last year we'd lost the Louisville game, played in the NIT, and then they both came back this year. By any reasonable estimation we'd be an easy tourney team this year in a worse ACC. We'd have talent on the way in to make up for Collins and Dinos heading out more on schedule. I can't imagine anyone making "fire Manning" arguments at that point. So it all boils down to how much you blame Manning for dealing with those early exits, or you just judge everything in a vacuum which in my opinion is an awful way to judge coaches.
Click to expand...

I agree that getting the most out of a bad team can be different than getting the most out of a good team. The second (if you can consistent recruit a good players) is clearly more important. But a good coach should hopefully be able to do both, and Manning has proven to be horrible at the former.

I'm willing to give him next year, but I don't feel all that optimistic about it.
 
The people who like to call us a "tournament team" last year fail to mention just how bad that Kansas State game went. It was embarrassing.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Yes, the fact that you were a huge Dino detractor (who won 2/3rds of his games) and have since carried water for the two worst coaches in school history record wise has not been lost on any of us.
Click to expand...

If carrying water for Manning means tourney or out next year then yeah, I guess that's me. How insane.

Carrying water for Bz apparently means being against the hire, being on the fence until the Codi/Devin class had chance, and never changing the opinion that if a coach can't make the tournament in 4 years they should be fired. The billboard was an embarrassment but I'm sure you're proud of the fanbase for that one. Keep painting me as some massive Bz supporter if it saves you from having to actually defend your positions though. Next best thing to personal insults I guess.
 
DCDeac said:
I mean, ok. You're just saying you moved the goalposts. At least we can all agree on that.

The argument is that Manning doesn't get credit for raising expectations, because that credit goes to Collins? This assumes he was misused as a freshman and discredits Manning's recruitment of him as luck I guess? This just brings the thread full circle - you're spelling out the mental gymnastics you have to go through to discredit last year versus consensus expectations including your own - but heaping praise on NC State who hasn't even secured a bid yet is no problem. Got it.
Click to expand...

Manning misused Collins as a freshman.

Manning did a good job recruiting Collins.

Keatts deserves credit for turning a dumpster fire into a bubble team after losing their best player to the draft.

None of those three statements are controversial.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top