RChildress107
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Also they weren’t arguments. They were questions. If you aren’t comfortable giving a straight answer to either that’s fine. I get it.
Danny Manning Credibility Watch
- Thread starter RaleighTriad
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Ayo
What up, Bird?
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You're not gonna win that argument, Ph. Collins leaving was the biggest reason why we weren't good last year. However, if the 2016 class isn't a complete dumpster fire and actually has multiple guys ready to plug in and play ACC-caliber minutes AND Manning isn't a shitty game coach, no reason why we shouldn't have been a fringe NCAAT team last year, instead of going 11-20 (4-14).
Strickland33
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I’m confused. What are we even arguing at this point?
Whether a facility will take R107 on involuntary commitment.
Deaconblue
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Rank order of importance of four events/non-events/circumstances that contributed to Wake going from NCAA tournament team to not sniffing any tournament.
DeacsATS
Sam "Ace" Rothstein
I agree with this, though I don’t think Manning is as shitty an in-game coach as everyone around here seems to. I definitely think he’s stubborn, but I don’t think he’s clueless.
The roster over the last couple of years has had a couple of big issues, IMO:
1- Important players who were defensive liabilities (combined with a coach who doesn’t have a reputation for coaching defense).
2- Nobody with the size and athleticism to create their own shot off the dribble at crunch time (combined with a coach who seems to prefer letting the players dictate the end of game).
I disagree, Manning is indeed a shitty game coach and has proved it for 3 years. Remember the calling a timeout when he didn't have any left? Remember the undeniably confounding line up combos he has put on the floor? Remember his inability to help his team defensively by sticking to the same basic concept even when he was getting his head beat in doing it? Teams know that all they have to do to beat a Manning team is stay relatively close until the last 7-8 minutes and he will be unable to coach them home to a win when things get tight
RChildress107
Well-known member
That’s a pretty accurate assessment. Manning built the 16-17 team from scratch in two recruiting classes. It was flawed for sure, as to be expected given the program he took over, but it got the job done.
Unfortunately, he failed to fix those flaws in class 3 and then he lost that entire team in the space of a year. His 17 and 18 classes are better on paper than 14/15 but since he couldn’t keep any of 2015 around for 4 years or bridge the gap with the 16 class he basically had to build a team from scratch again. So unless that team outperforms the 16-17 team AND he is able to retain that group and build on it with a solid class in 19, then he should be gone.
Hard to argue with this. I am not sure what more Manning would have to do to earn "shitty game coach". Maybe accidentally bring in the walk-ons in a one possession game because he had planned on the game being out of reach at that point and he likes to stick to his game plan?
I think RC just believes sufficient talent can overcome "shitty game coach". I think you can only do this at a blue blood program or in the NBA where the players run the show anyway.
RChildress107
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We had 1 NBA caliber player and made the tournament. So it seems like talent can overcome shitty game coaching. Go ask Carolina fans what they think about Roy’s game coaching.
Ol' Roy is a mediocre game coach and pretty good at his other responsibilities. Manning will have to improve a lot as a coach to get a win in the tournament with any recruits he is capable of landing.
RChildress107
Well-known member
We have the third best recruit in the last 25 years of the program starting this year.
That is the glimmer of hope for next year. Should be fun to have him for a year.
You take what you can get but I would prefer a program with a bit of direction and foundation.
I hope we win enough to have this discussion a year from now.
RChildress107
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This pretty much sums up the post [Redacted] era. I’ve always said this year will tell us more than the last two about the direction and foundation under Manning
PhDeac
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Which is why it would have been great for a new coach to coach Hoard.
MichDeac25
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Congrats. You're in the same camp as Wellman who believed firing Dino and bringing in a better coach was the right idea.
RChildress107
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It would have been great if John Collins stayed another year, if Harry Giles and Ayo and EJ Montgomery came to Wake.
Seems like a pretty big assumption to think Hoard would have stayed to play for any other coach and an even bigger assumption that we could have hired such a coach.
RChildress107
Well-known member
But since you won’t answer my hypotheticals we’ll go with this one.
Based on the roster as it stands now, what would you expect our record, Kenpom ranking, and postseason result next year to be with:
1. Tony Bennett or Coach K as our head coach;
2. The best coach Wellman could reasonably expect to hire had he fired Manning in April;
3. The coach Wellman likely would have hired; and
4. Danny Manning.
Roy is a lot better than "pretty good." His record speaks for itself.
PhDeac
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Wellman didn’t believe that. He believed firing Dino and bringing in his buddy was the right idea. We hire any number of coaches after Dino and we are looking at a decade of greatness. But Wellman hired someone nobody wanted. Your argument is ridiculous. Based on your logic, you never fire a coach because the next guy could be worse.