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Danny Manning Credibility Watch

RacerDeac said:
1) My comment at no point mentioned athletic directors. That's completely out of context of the thread and comment I replied to. I was commenting solely on some of our fans' tendency to prescribe more coaching success and potential to Manning than they would if he hadn't been a successful player, despite little evidence that there's much/any correlation.

2) Said athletic director also hired [name redacted]...
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So your point about fans overrating Manning's ability is a complete non sequitur for your point about him having an easier path than most as a coach?

See why I was curious about the point you were trying to make? Unfalsfiable claims notwithstanding, I don't think there's much relevance to this line of logic.
 
John Ruskin said:
yeah and his tough guy, "father figure" shtick sucks
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Yeah, let's go back to the Dino days of letting guys do what they want like Al-Farouq dribbling the ball up the court and getting picked every time. Or launching threes at a less than 30% clip.

You either have discipline, or you don't.
 
I have seen nothing from Manning that leads me to believe he will out coach anyone in the ACC or most other D1 schools. His best hope was recruiting which does not seem to be working out so well either. Our bball program remains in serious trouble.
 
TownieDeac said:
So your point about fans overrating Manning's ability is a complete non sequitur for your point about him having an easier path than most as a coach?
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I'll see if I can make this easy for you. Our fans assume Manning is better at coaching because he was a great player. Manning had an easier road to where he is now because he was a great player and had great connections. The two are somewhat interrelated in that they both deal with his NBA experience and how it translates into his coaching career (i.e. our fans assume a benefit to his NBA experience, but it's the wrong benefit), but they are also separate observations.
 
I'll make it easy for you. Your observations are pretty bad. The fanbase is pretty lukewarm on Manning in spite of the awful position he was put in, and everybody recognizes that good player =/= good coach.
 
TownieDeac said:
I'll make it easy for you. Your observations are pretty bad. The fanbase is pretty lukewarm on Manning in spite of the awful position he was put in, and everybody recognizes that good player =/= good coach.
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I don't recall implying that it is a majority opinion among our fans or representing how widely held of an opinion it is at all. It would seem to be obvious that I'm speaking of people who are high on Manning and his potential. Meanwhile, it's far more defensible than your position that "everybody" recognizes the lack of correlation between playing success and coaching success. I seem to recall Manning's NBA experience and success as a player being one of the biggest, if not the biggest, defenses of him as a coach and his potential as a coach, both by our fans and by Wellman at the time he was hired.
 
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RacerDeac said:
Exactly. And neither went straight to a school like Kansas as their first assistant gig. Both had to put in time jumping around from program to program over those years to make another step up. And then when they did get their first head coaching gig, they both had FAR more success and more sustained success before jumping to a big-time program. There's no doubt that Manning has had an easier road to a job at the top of the college basketball world, even when comparing him to some of the fastest risers and most talented coaches in the nation.
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But he didn't start at Kansas as an assistant coach. He went from playing for the Pistons to being just a team manager at his alma mater. It took him 3 years to become an assistant coach and a decade to get a head coaching position. I mean, Randolph Childress just got promoted to assistant coach after a single year in our program and he had nowhere near the player resume Manning had. Other coaches who spent less than 10 years prior to a head coaching gig: Shaka Smart, Skip Prosser, Rick Pitino, Dave Odom - hell it's hard to find anyone who put in more years than him. Then there are guys like Bobby Hurley - 2 years. Brad Stephens - 6 years. Archie Miller - 8 years.

What was so easy about Manning's path to becoming a head coach? What shortcuts did he take?
 
all i'm really suggesting is that you're chasing down a really, really dumb point, racer
 
deacvision7 said:
The only way that Manning shows "promise" is because he is still relatively young for a head coach.

Nothing measurable is all that promising, IMO.
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There's not a large sample size to go off of, which I think is probably your point in the first place---that Wake shouldn't be hiring coaches that haven't been a proven coach somewhere else.

His first recruiting class at Tulsa was pretty damn good and they should crack the top 25 this week. You can attribute that probably as a combination of his recruiting prowess and the coaching of Frank Haith. He improved the Tulsa team over 100 spots in KenPom from his first to second year, which is a pretty sizable margin.

Time will tell whether or not he can get the job done here at Wake.
 
Correct with your first sentence. That was my overriding point at the time of the hire, and nothing has persuaded me off of that belief to date.
 
I dont think it would be a bad idea for Manning to find a former college HC to be one of his assistants - like Steve Robinson / Bobby Lutz / Larry Shyatt. Someone like that would bring a tremendous amount of in-game coaching experience that would go a long way to overcoming some of the problems.
 
Tin Cup said:
I dont think it would be a bad idea for Manning to find a former college HC to be one of his assistants - like Steve Robinson / Bobby Lutz / Larry Shyatt. Someone like that would bring a tremendous amount of in-game coaching experience that would go a long way to overcoming some of the problems.
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DAVE ODOM?!?!
 
Tin Cup said:
I dont think it would be a bad idea for Manning to find a former college HC to be one of his assistants - like Steve Robinson / Bobby Lutz / Larry Shyatt. Someone like that would bring a tremendous amount of in-game coaching experience that would go a long way to overcoming some of the problems.
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I agree with this. Assistants haven't been noticeably productive yet.
 
Tin Cup said:
I dont think it would be a bad idea for Manning to find a former college HC to be one of his assistants - like Steve Robinson / Bobby Lutz / Larry Shyatt. Someone like that would bring a tremendous amount of in-game coaching experience that would go a long way to overcoming some of the problems.
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Wonder what Alan Major is up to.
 
RacerDeac said:
Out of 350+ teams, we're a top 25 team over the last 25 years (maybe a bit lower after the last 5). How is that not at the top of the college basketball world? Never mind the intangibles such as our conference, tobacco road, etc. I really don't understand Wake Forest fans obsession with denying that we have been consistently really really good team, part of the 2nd tier behind a handful of teams that have been really, really great over the same time period.
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I guess I consider the top 10-15 programs to be the "top" of college basketball. For a twenty year period we were certainly a top 25 program but even then we weren't close to being one of the top 10-15 jobs in college basketball. I have always been an advocate for recognizing the strength of our program pre-redacted. But to say that we are "maybe a little lower" after the last 5 years is to downplay how truly damaging those 5 years were.

I think it's arguable whether or not Manning took over a top 50 job all things considered.
 
birdman said:
What about Auburn? A 5 star and two 4 stars in Pearl's second full recruiting class coming in 2016. Following up a class last year that featured 2 4-star players. Auburn hasn't been too the NCAA tourney since 2003 and been only 8 times in program history. Barbee (super nice guy BTW) had a 39.0% winning percentage and [Redacted] had a 40.1 winning percentage both from 2010-2014. Pearl and Manning had almost the exact same record their first year. Seems to me, by this logic, Auburn recruiting should be worse off than Wake because they don't even have the history of Odom, Prosser, Tacy etc. Make all the excuses you want about this staff's recruiting efforts, but there are coaches out there, getting great results with many of the same (or worse) supposed hindrances. I am not saying we should be putting up billboards, but there are reasons to be concerned.
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I mean Pearl has always been known as an exceptional recruiter. And given Auburn's recent history he just landed an exceptional class. Finding the one outlier doesn't negate the point that an expected class for a P5 school with our track record the last 5 years is probably pretty similar to the 2016 class.
 
Ben Howland @ Miss. State. They are awful this year, but will be really good next year with a top 5 recruiting class.
 
Tin Cup said:
I dont think it would be a bad idea for Manning to find a former college HC to be one of his assistants - like Steve Robinson / Bobby Lutz / Larry Shyatt. Someone like that would bring a tremendous amount of in-game coaching experience that would go a long way to overcoming some of the problems.
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Larry Shyatt is the head coach at Wyoming.
 
deacvision7 said:
Correct with your first sentence. That was my overriding point at the time of the hire, and nothing has persuaded me off of that belief to date.
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I think most people would agree with that point, but have moved on to talking about whether Manning will be a good coach for Wake Forest.

If he ends up being good it won't change the fact that Wellman made his second shitty hire in a row. But the fact that Manning was an objectively shitty hire doesn't negate the small positive signs he has demonstrated thus far.

I haven't seen anything that makes me believe Manning is going to be our next Skip or Odom (though I certainly am hopeful that he will be), but I have seen signs that Manning is capable of leaving the program in a significantly better spot than he found it.
 
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