Deacs Seton Hall Game Thread

[deacvision7]

"McKie....Perhaps someone can explain why he spent the majority of the 1st half standing stationary in a corner watching the game ??? And then in the 2nd half, he suddenly looks terrific....starts moving / looking for the ball and starts slicing down the lane for buckets and/or free throws ???"

The first half the zone offense was trying get open looks either on skip passes or penetration. I guess Travis is now considered a 3 pt. threat so he was hanging out on the perimeter. He's clearly our best post player and not that great of a shooter so it has been puzzling why we're using him in that role. Against HPU, I was hoping we'd post him up more and get him the rock but it only happened a couple of times.

I think Buzz recognized that the only way to get consistent scoring, and possibly foul Pope out was to get it to Travis in the second half. With a couple of more made layups and decent officiating getting him to the line it would've been effective. The Deacs had some home cooking laid on them by the stripes and it made it tough to narrow the gap.

Note: This post offers no comment on Buzz or opinion on buzzin/buzzout. Lobo is not mentioned either.

:wtf::noidea:

 

[jaybone]

Was at the game and here's my take....

First and foremost, we have no 'go-to' guy right now. Harris is the closest but too often he seems content to 'watch' on several posessions as opposed to going and getting the ball.

McKie....Perhaps someone can explain why he spent the majority of the 1st half standing stationary in a corner watching the game ??? And then in the 2nd half, he suddenly looks terrific....starts moving / looking for the ball and starts slicing down the lane for buckets and/or free throws ???

Desrosiers....certainly willing and trying but just doesn't have any upper-body strength and is a tad slow. Maybe in 2 years he might have a Vissers-type Senior season.

Chennault....not a great ball-handler, certainly trying but seems to me he's limited as a PG when our offense ( at least on this night ) is near totally geared to perimeter ball movement. He doesn't seem able/confortable in driving the lane for dishes out for jumpers.

Mescheriakov....IMO, he's a tweener between a PF and a SF. Again he hustles and gives effort but just not blessed with a whole lot of talent on either end of the court.

Fisher....I think there's some hope here. I like his 'court awareness' via his passing on the fly. He just has to move more to enhance his shooting opportunities. Oh, and it would be nice sometime soon for us to set some high pics for him !

Fields....I think there's some hope here as well. Kid did a nice eye-contact alley-oop to Walker in the 2nd half. Obviously has speed, good dribbler and enjoys the PG role and plays good man-to-mab D. Downside right now is he apparantly has no urge or is bashful/reluctant to shoot the ball.

Walker....all things considered, thought he did o.k.. Was obviously very nervous first time off the bench and only made/had 1 defensive lapse that I could see. Had the nice alley-oop bucket, grabbed a couple 'bounds and I think had a block and caused SHU to alter 2 shots. Frankly, he did as well in limited time as Desrosiers did in extended time on the court. BTW, was a bit disappointed to see Battle clearly give him a tongue lashing for the 1 obvious defensive lapse. There'll be plenty of time for that down the road if/when needed....NOT NOW the kid's first time out. A little bitty 'atta boy' would have perhaps been better at this juncture.

In sum, we have nobody with size and strength who can box-out and rebound, we have no depth and basically 2 guys to generate any offense. In other words, we are very limited in what we can do as a team over the course of a game.

fair and almost completely agree. I think TC has shown some signs the last few games. He has hit some important shots lately which is a 180 degree change in my book. At some point, I do think he is savvy enough to embrace his ceiling and not try and do what he isn't good at. He isn't there yet though

 

[deaconson]

And if he wins 5 this year, or every 4, the expectation from the staff to the team to Wellman would be 7+ next year considering who we are adding. Pure Speculation

Anybody who is 100% sure that Bzd is not the answer is an idiot, or rather, is reacting purely emotionally. I would argue there is a wealth of evidence indicating he has not once in his career proven anything more than average coaching I am certainly not 100% sure that Bzd IS the answer. I know he can coach emotional reaction but it seems to me he is at best an ackward mentor.

I said we'll know more this year and we do. We are playing relatively consistently. Other than shooting and a couple of players who need to be really on their game to be Div 1 caliber players, we have played very consistently. We have only had a few minutes here and there where lack of offense has resulted in a breakdown on defense for a few possessions in a row. not sure how you define breakdown in defense. the team has not been very good on defense this year. offense is running better than last year but their defense has been less than great.

All that is on the staff. Next year, the coach is going to have a collection of ACC talent Pure Speculation until they show up to play, though almost all of it will be young. They will need to meet the expectations of that then. Again, it is not fucking rocket science. Emotional Reaction

Last year, we did not meet expectations, thus the blow back. This year, we are, and recruiting has met expectations as well. Still, for half of you, blow back continues without acknowledging even reluctantly the progress made.

It sucks. I don't feel bad for Bzd. I feel bad for the team though. They deserve better.

a few comments there in bold. even the most ardent "bzz outer" agrees that the team has shown some improvement this year. they just don't believe bzz will ever coach a team of his into much more than a mediocrity.

they are indeed playing better than last year. i just don't think they are over achieving. flirting with a 500 record is something that a "bad" wake team should be doing. last year was such a disaster that it completely changed the goals that a wake basketball team should be shooting for. i'll say again, a 500 is about the worst a wake team should ever finish a season. a losing record in the acc i can understand now and then. but never, never, never should they be ineligible for the nit.

 

[jaybone]

We'll see. He is going to be around next year and the year after that, so if he doesn't get above mediocrity with a senior Travis plus three of his recruiting classes, then you will certainly be correct and he'll be gone.

But if he wins 25 games and we do well in the NCAA tourney, then my assumptions will be right and you'll be wrong.

Based on the limited information I have though, Bzd is a very good coach, at least so the NBA thinks. Not necessarily as a head coach though and there in lies the big question.

That's what I mean. It's NOT an emotional reaction as you call it. Bzd can coach basketball better than most he goes up against in the college game. The question is whether he can lead, and lead a program.

IMO, Dino couldn't coach all that well and he couldn't lead, but he could recruit. Skip was just an okay coach, a great leader and he could recruit.

Coach K is great at all of it I begrudgingly admit, and Coach Williams is a better recruiter, not as good a coach or leader though very good at both.

 

[DeaconSig]

Jay,

Tell me about Bob Hill and why he isn't a pretty good comparison to Coach [Redacted] when it comes to college coaching ability.

 

[deaconson]

We'll see. He is going to be around next year and the year after that, so if he doesn't get above mediocrity with a senior Travis plus three of his recruiting classes, then you will certainly be correct and he'll be gone.

But if he wins 25 games and we do well in the NCAA tourney, then my assumptions will be right and you'll be wrong.

Based on the limited information I have though, Bzd is a very good coach, at least so the NBA thinks. Not necessarily as a head coach though and there in lies the big question.

That's what I mean. It's NOT an emotional reaction as you call it. Bzd can coach basketball better than most he goes up against in the college game. The question is whether he can lead, and lead a program.

IMO, Dino couldn't coach all that well and he couldn't lead, but he could recruit. Skip was just an okay coach, a great leader and he could recruit.

Coach K is great at all of it I begrudgingly admit, and Coach Williams is a better recruiter, not as good a coach or leader though very good at both.

it is an emotional reaction. you want bzz to succeed because if he does not wake loses. i get it. i want it as well. but there is ZERO historical evidence that bzz can be a winner. his entire coaching history is .500 at best. he is not out coaching the guy on the other side line every night. he is losing at least every other night. he is losing by large margins. he has never won in the post season. he may "know basketball" or he may have a good bball mind. that is not the same thing as being a good coach.

i really think you see everything we all see. you just hold on to the hope that at this point in bzz's career he is going to finally put it together and be successful. i don't. since he coaches at wake i hope i am wrong.

 

[deacfreke2]

:wtf::noidea:

Clarifying, I was not offering info in defense of buzz, only speculating on why he chose to do what it appeared he did from an X and O perspective.

 

[jaybone]

I assume you mean the bob hill that coached the Spurs 15 years ago. Not a bad comparison in the worst case scenario type of way. That is certainly the down side possibility.

I would argue that most people thought that Pete Carroll would be a terrible college coach since he was a mediocre pro coach, but you have basically point pointed the worst case scenario - a very good basketball coach who is just an awful college coach.

Not familiar enough with Fordham to understand why that was such a disaster, but he did get another NBA chance as a head coach and pretty sure he is coaching in the NBA now.

Not that that does anything for Fordham.

But college coaching seems to me to involve three things: game/practice coaching, mentoring/team building, and recruiting. If you muck one of those up, you be okay. If you muck up two, you are going to suck. If you do all three well, your an institution (e.g., K, Boheim, John Thompson I)

 

[jaybone]

it is an emotional reaction. you want bzz to succeed because if he does not wake loses. i get it. i want it as well. but there is ZERO historical evidence that bzz can be a winner. his entire coaching history is .500 at best. he is not out coaching the guy on the other side line every night. he is losing at least every other night. he is losing by large margins. he has never won in the post season. he may "know basketball" or he may have a good bball mind. that is not the same thing as being a good coach.

i really think you see everything we all see. you just hold on to the hope that at this point in bzz's career he is going to finally put it together and be successful. i don't. since he coaches at wake i hope i am wrong.

Somewhat true, but I get heckled for it here a lot, but I do know some people in the NBA who can still get a dick hard over Bzd's Nugget's team the year before Melo came on and then Melo's first year. Said it was one of the most phenomenal coaching jobs they've ever seen and that Phil Jackson would have had "back trouble" within a month of that god forsaken first season.

So, I hold onto that. I don't remember a second of his coaching career at Air Force or Colorado, didn't watch, didn't follow, barely remember Air Force playing us. I watched about 30 Nuggets games he coached. I really liked him then, and think he can succeed here.

He's a pretty young old man. He's got a ton of pride that he masks pretty well. He got royally jobbed at Denver and it was Kenyon Martin related. Don't know for a fact as I've never spoken to the man, but from people that knew him post Kenyon Martin, he was hurt, was licking his wounds and quietly. THE reason he wasn't back in the NBA after Air Force: pride - from what I've been told.

So I would think he would like nothing more than to be regarded as a very very good college basketball coach. Air Force and Colorado didn't have the facilities or situation to support that. He's a motivated man, regardless of how he presents himself on the sideline. He's not minding his time until he retires or gets another NBA chance - he is near desperate for respect.

Sad truth is it is going to take a Sweet 16 to just get that from his own alumni and fan base, having nothing to do with the national picture.

 

[jaybone]

And for what it is worth, his calling card in the NBA was evaluating talent. I don't expect him to be a great recruiter. He needs a staff to cover his weaknesses I would think, but if he is able to apply his ability to evaluate talent at the high school level (I wouldn't think that is a given though), then that is a hidden asset.

 

[TBR]

Somewhat true, but I get heckled for it here a lot, but I do know some people in the NBA who can still get a dick hard over Bzd's Nugget's team the year before Melo came on and then Melo's first year. Said it was one of the most phenomenal coaching jobs they've ever seen and that Phil Jackson would have had "back trouble" within a month of that god forsaken first season.

So, I hold onto that. I don't remember a second of his coaching career at Air Force or Colorado, didn't watch, didn't follow, barely remember Air Force playing us. I watched about 30 Nuggets games he coached. I really liked him then, and think he can succeed here.

He's a pretty young old man. He's got a ton of pride that he masks pretty well. He got royally jobbed at Denver and it was Kenyon Martin related. Don't know for a fact as I've never spoken to the man, but from people that knew him post Kenyon Martin, he was hurt, was licking his wounds and quietly. THE reason he wasn't back in the NBA after Air Force: pride - from what I've been told.

So I would think he would like nothing more than to be regarded as a very very good college basketball coach. Air Force and Colorado didn't have the facilities or situation to support that. He's a motivated man, regardless of how he presents himself on the sideline. He's not minding his time until he retires or gets another NBA chance - he is near desperate for respect.

Sad truth is it is going to take a Sweet 16 to just get that from his own alumni and fan base, having nothing to do with the national picture.

Really solid post.

As for the last bit, that's as it should be. Our AD told us we should expect post season success so that's what we should expect. I'm sure [Redacted] understands that's what this business is all about.

Regarding the post after this one, I thought [Redacted] was an advance scout, not a talent scout?

 

[thedeacfan]

I agree with you to a point. Where you and I differ is your "this year" language. If there was any indication that this might be over after this year, I'd see your points. But the reason people are unhappy, or at least why I am unhappy, is there is no end in sight. I will admit, buzz fell into a shitty situation. But, he isn't the answer, he will never be the answer, and he is really just a waste of everyones time.

+1

Wow! This is almost exactly what I was going to post in response to Strick. The crazy Bzzz out stuff is just a symptom of people stuck in an impossible situation that they can not fix and there is not hope of getting out. Again, the sooner he is gone, the sooner we can have hope.

+1

... I think we are overachieving. ...

... If we are better next year, then Bzd still has a job. If we are better the year after that, ditto. ...

The first part is just sad and the second part is even sadder. My how our expectations for our basketball team have fallen.

... they just don't believe bzz will ever coach a team of his into much more than a mediocrity.

+1

We'll see. He is going to be around next year and the year after that, so if he doesn't get above mediocrity with a senior Travis plus three of his recruiting classes, then you will certainly be correct and he'll be gone.

Response by thedeacfan - This what I do not understand. You are willing to accept 2 more years of empty seating at the Joel. Make no mistake, every year is digging a deeper hole. The loss of revenue hurts not just the basketball program, but all athletics at Wake. You're betting an awful lot on someone who has NEVER done anything to justify a belief that he can succeed. Further, whether it's his fault or not, there are many who (barring a sweet sixteen appearance) will never accept him. Any manager capable of making a decision would cut their losses and start positioning the program for success. That would rekindle hope and attendance.

But if he wins 25 games and we do well in the NCAA tourney, then my assumptions will be right and you'll be wrong.

Based on the limited information I have though, Bzd is a very good coach, at least so the NBA thinks. Not necessarily as a head coach though and there in lies the big question.

Response by thedeacfan - And he was fired because he could not manage the egos of high level basketball talent. A talented NBA player gets him fired and last year he makes it a point to show Wake's talented recruits who's boss. They left, but he showed them. You may think that the same thing would have happened nder Skip or Dino, but I do not. He failed those young men.

That's what I mean. It's NOT an emotional reaction as you call it. Bzd can coach basketball better than most he goes up against in the college game. The question is whether he can lead, and lead a program.

IMO, Dino couldn't coach all that well and he couldn't lead, but he could recruit. Skip was just an okay coach, a great leader and he could recruit.

Coach K is great at all of it I begrudgingly admit, and Coach Williams is a better recruiter, not as good a coach or leader though very good at both.

... but there is ZERO historical evidence that bzz can be a winner. ... i really think you see everything we all see. you just hold on to the hope that at this point in bzz's career he is going to finally put it together and be successful. i don't. ...

+1

I assume you mean the bob hill that coached the Spurs 15 years ago. Not a bad comparison in the worst case scenario type of way. That is certainly the down side possibility.

I would argue that most people thought that Pete Carroll would be a terrible college coach since he was a mediocre pro coach, but you have basically point pointed the worst case scenario - a very good basketball coach who is just an awful college coach.

I started a thread last year on this topic; theorizing that significant experience and tournament coaching success at the college level BEFORE coaching in the NBA may be a prerequisite to a subsequent successful transition back to the college game after service as an NBA coach.

http://www.ogboards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20849#post20849

 

[TBR]

How many coaches have started out in the NBA and then gone to the college game? That's really what [Redacted] did since he only spent 2 years as a college head coach before going to the NBA. Also worth noting that the reason you don't see NBA coaches going to the college game (I would not call Calipari, Pitino, etc NBA coaches) is because even a mediocre record will normally get a NBA coach another NBA job.

Gotta think that other NBA teams either didn't think much of [Redacted]'s coaching job or his relationship with the Nugget's head office, otherwise he would have quickly found another NBA job.

 

[deacvision7]

No, Mr. NBA-Connected, jaybone, assures us that [Redacted] didn't get another NBA job because he didn't want one after getting "burned" by Denver.

 

[thedeacfan]

How many coaches have started out in the NBA and then gone to the college game? That's really what [Redacted] did since he only spent 2 years as a college head coach before going to the NBA. Also worth noting that the reason you don't see NBA coaches going to the college game (I would not call Calipari, Pitino, etc NBA coaches) is because even a mediocre record will normally get a NBA coach another NBA job.

Gotta think that other NBA teams either didn't think much of [Redacted]'s coaching job or his relationship with the Nugget's head office, otherwise he would have quickly found another NBA job.

Agreed. That was the whole point of my original thread; "that significant experience and tournament coaching success at the college level BEFORE coaching in the NBA may be a prerequisite to a subsequent successful transition back to the college game after service as an NBA coach." Calapari et al had "significant experience and tournament coaching success at the college level BEFORE coaching in the NBA..." Sidney Lowe and Buzz are examples that did NOT have "significant experience and tournament coaching success at the college level BEFORE coaching in the NBA ..."

 

[TBR]

I got your point, my point was that the [Redacted] route is not well traveled. Lowe is an example, but what other coach worked in the NBA without significant college experience and then became a college head coach?