Difference between Manning and Clawson

[RacerDeac]

I think it's a very optimistic and desperate consensus, as in "we better make a bowl next year."

It's the same consensus that had us as a bubble team earlier this year. Or the consensus that has 3 NBA caliber players on our team at current. Or the consensus that has Childress as a starter next year.

 

[ChrisL68]

It seems based on past stops that Clawson's teams have a jump around year 3. With our schedule, seems like a bowl game is a realistic expectation. Pretty sure that is the expectation of the coaching staff.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

It seems based on past stops that Clawson's teams have a jump around year 3. With our schedule, seems like a bowl game is a realistic expectation. Pretty sure that is the expectation of the coaching staff.

What does history predict about year 3 of DM coached team's, oh wait, he's yet to coach a season 3 with one team since he's been a head coach. I still have hope for Danny Manning, it'd be a great story if he goes on to have great success here, but a head coach with only 2 years experience as a head coach should've never been hired. The dumpster fire created by Wellman and left by Bzzz is too much for such an inexperienced head coach I fear.

 

[Pilchard]

We does history predict about year 3 of DM coached team's, oh wait, he's yet to coach a season 3 with one team since he's been a head coach. I still have hope for Danny Manning, it'd be a great story if he goes on to have great success here, but a head coach with only 2 years experience as a head coach should've never been hired. The dumpster fire created by Wellman and left by Bzzz is too much for such an inexperienced head coach I fear.

Don't think you can set any hard and fast rule for how many years a guy must coach before he gets a head coaching gig. Everyone is different, and it doesn't make sense to limit your pool of candidates to an arbitrary rule like that. Like Manning, Kevin Ollie spent most of his post-college career as an NBA player, and Ollie wasn't even an assistant for as close as long as Manning was, Ollie had never had been a head coach on any level, and Ollie won a NC at UCONN. Similarly, Chris Mack was an assistant at WF (of all places), got the Xavier job, and has won 20+ games there each year, but one over his 7 years there. Andy Enfield (who many people here wanted WF to hire) coached Florida Gulf Coast, a level clearly below Tulsa, for only two years before getting the USC job, and they now look to be a tournament team. Will Wade, who has done very well at VCU replacing Shaka was head coach at Chattanooga for only two years before getting the VCU job. Tony Bennett coached Washington State (his first job; so Wazzu hired him with no head coaching experience) for 3 years before getting the UVA job. There are plenty of coaches will less or equal experience as Manning who have excelled as head coaches.

Manning had been working under Bill Self at Kansas for 9 years before he got the Tulsa job. So, he has been coaching college hoop for 11 years before taking the WF job. If he fails, don't see lack of experience as a factor. Totally understand the frustration with how this team has fallen apart as the season has gone on, but good coaches have had seasons like this. While I am more skeptical now than I was a couple of months ago, still think Manning needs time and patience before a conclusion can be made whether he was the right hire or not.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

Don't think you can set any hard and fast rule for how many years a guy must coach before he gets a head coaching gig. Everyone is different, and it doesn't make sense to limit your pool of candidates to an arbitrary rule like that. Like Manning, Kevin Ollie spent most of his post-college career as an NBA player, and he was even an assistant as long as Manning, never had been a head coach, and Ollie won a NC at UCONN. Similarly, Chris Mack was an assistant at WF (of all places), got the Xavier job, and has won 20+ games there each year, but one over his 7 years there. Andy Enfield (who many people here wanted WF to hire) coached Florida Gulf Coast, a level clearly below Tulsa, for only two years before getting the USC job, and they now look to be a tournament team. Will Wade, who has done very well at VCU replacing Shaka was head coach at Chattanooga for only two years before getting the VCU job. Tony Bennett coached Washington State (his first job; so Wazzu hired him with no head coaching experience) for 3 years before getting the UVA job.

Manning had been working under Bill Self at Kansas for 9 years before he got the Tulsa job. So, he has been coaching college hoop for 11 years before taking the WF job. If he fails, don't see lack of experience as a factor. Totally understand the frustration with how this team has fallen apart as the season has gone on, but good coaches have had seasons like this. While I am more skeptical now than I was a couple of months ago, still think Manning needs time and patience before a conclusion can be made whether he was the right hire or not.

Following the Bzzz debacle and the fact that the ACC is loaded with either great to very good coaches, multiple hall of fame type coaches, I think we needed something more. Now, maybe Manning was the best we could get, but since Wellman made the hire I doubt it. I want Danny to succeed, would love for him to be successful and be here for years, but this season has been a huge disappointment and he just doesn't seem to be doing anything to try to fix it. Same lineups, same mistakes, etc., etc. Also not sure that coaching experience at a big state school with top level tradition is the best experience for a job like Wake Forest.

 

[bobknightfan]

Bill Connelly's 2016 S&P+ projections came out today. Wake is 74 and finished 2015 at 92.

Opponents are as follows:

9/1 Tulane 122
9/10 at Duke 51
9/17 Delaware NR
9/24 at Indiana 56
10/1 at NCSU 40
10/8 Syracuse 44
10/15 at FSU 5
10/22 Open
10/29 Army 124
11/5 Virginia 68
11/12 at Louisville 20
11/19 Clemson 3
11/26 BC 50
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...jections?_ga=1.33653985.1945612839.1454610555

Clear wins with Tulane, Delaware and Army and favored over UVA at home.

They are not going to win any of those 5 road games...or Clemson at home. So 6-6 is the ceiling, and they have to sweep all six of the other games to get there.

It is a ridiculously easy schedule...and that is why they have a slim outside chance of getting to 6-6....but I think the odds are still strongly against it.

 

[ChrisL68]

Indiana should be a winnable game. I think most of their skill position players were seniors.

I mean it comes down to whether or not Clawson is able to elevate the status of the program. If he does that, then he will have a year where he wins some games he wasn't projected to do so on paper.

 

[Bones McKinney]

Following the Bzzz debacle and the fact that the ACC is loaded with either great to very good coaches, multiple hall of fame type coaches, I think we needed something more. Now, maybe Manning was the best we could get, but since Wellman made the hire I doubt it. I want Danny to succeed, would love for him to be successful and be here for years, but this season has been a huge disappointment and he just doesn't seem to be doing anything to try to fix it. Same lineups, same mistakes, etc., etc. Also not sure that coaching experience at a big state school with top level tradition is the best experience for a job like Wake Forest.

And just who did you think we were going to get? Nobody who "is" at the hall of fame level is going to come to a fair to middlin job like lowly old wake forest. We are now a stepping stone job with Nathan O & Well-Man in firm control of all things Wake. We have never been a consistent winner in any major sport and basketball falls in as an average at best job. Football falls in as the worst job along with Boston College and Syracuse. Tony Bennett has had time to build his team to what he wanted. We must allow Manning to do something similar.

 

[RacerDeac]

We have never been a consistent winner in any major sport and basketball falls in as an average at best job.

Yeah, we've never been a consistent winner, save for the two decades preceding [Redacted]...

Our job was one of the best in the nation until Wellman hired [Redacted] and Manning to run it into the ground.

 

[Bones McKinney]

Yeah, we've never been a consistent winner, save for the two decades preceding [Redacted]...

Our job was one of the best in the nation until Wellman hired [Redacted] and Manning to run it into the ground.

Racer we have had really great stretches of a few years in there like 1993 through 1997 and then we fell back down. The last few years of Carl Tacy and all the years of Bob Staak were terrible. We also had a good little run with Skip for a few years but as soon as Chris Paul left we were right back down to last place if you remember. Dino Gaudio did really well but got fired for whatever reason and now we are in an 6 year stretch of bad records. Ron Wellman's hiring of Jim Caldwell did not amount to anything for an 8 year run overall. We did have 3 really good years of football under Jim Grobe. Hopefully Dave Clawson and Danny Manning are going to turn us around from this mess we are in. We have to give any coach not named [Redacted] more than 2 years to see what they can do.

 

[diverdeac]

Clawsen has attitude. He doesn't take any crap off anyone unlike everyone ever at wake but Skip.

Clawsen has had one problem. No offensive line. The defensive schemes have been excellent with just a couple of really good players we've been good there. No excuse for the state of the offensive line with Grobe etc. that more than any other area is coaching and player development.

 

[ChrisL68]

Racer we have had really great stretches of a few years in there like 1993 through 1997 and then we fell back down. The last few years of Carl Tacy and all the years of Bob Staak were terrible. We also had a good little run with Skip for a few years but as soon as Chris Paul left we were right back down to last place if you remember. Dino Gaudio did really well but got fired for whatever reason and now we are in an 6 year stretch of bad records. Ron Wellman's hiring of Jim Caldwell did not amount to anything for an 8 year run overall. We did have 3 really good years of football under Jim Grobe. Hopefully Dave Clawson and Danny Manning are going to turn us around from this mess we are in. We have to give any coach not named [name redacted] more than 2 years to see what they can do.

We went to the Final 8 and the NIT in Tacy's last two years.

 

[morrison2951]

Coaching matters.... and Tacy was one of our best.

Good times when I roamed MSD's halls with Tacy at the helm. :thumbsup:

 

[Shake]

Being historically competitive would absolutely include the tenure of Tacy, Odom, Skip and Dino. I don't think people realize just how far Wake basketball is from that benchmark. Wellman said Bizz would get us there...then Manning would absolutely get us there BECAUSE his friend Jeff did everything they asked him to do and left the program in good shape. The Dude keeps lying to us. Unless something crazy happens on the recruiting trail it will be year 9 before we sniff what we all came to expect from Tacy, Odom, Skip and Dino.

 

[RacerDeac]

Racer we have had really great stretches of a few years in there like 1993 through 1997 and then we fell back down.

I'll do this, yet again...

We went to the post season 18 out of the 20 years preceding [name redacted]. 14/20 were to the NCAA's. Only one losing season.

1990–91	Dave Odom	19–11	8–6	T-3rd	NCAA Second Round
1991–92	Dave Odom	17–12	7–9	6th	NCAA First Round
1992–93	Dave Odom	21–9	10–6	T-3rd	NCAA Regional Semifinals
1993–94	Dave Odom	21–12	9–7	3rd	NCAA Second Round
1994–95	Dave Odom	26–6	12–4	1st	NCAA Regional Semifinals
1995–96	Dave Odom	26–6	12–4	2nd	NCAA Regional Final
1996–97	Dave Odom	24–7	11–5	T-2nd	NCAA Second Round
1997–98	Dave Odom	16–14	7–9	T-4th	NIT Second Round
1998–99	Dave Odom	17–14	7–9	4th	NIT Second Round
1999–00	Dave Odom	22–14	7–9	5th	NIT Champions
2000–01	Dave Odom	19–11	8–8	T-5th	NCAA First Round
2001–02	Skip Prosser	21–13	9–7	T-3rd	NCAA Second Round
2002–03	Skip Prosser	25–6	13–3	1st	NCAA Second Round
2003–04	Skip Prosser	21–10	9–7	T-3rd	NCAA Regional Semifinals
2004–05	Skip Prosser	27–6	13–3	2nd	NCAA Second Round
2005–06	Skip Prosser	17–17	3–13	12th	NIT First Round
2006–07	Skip Prosser	15–16	5–11	T-10th
2007–08	Dino Gaudio	17–13	7–9	T-7th
2008–09	Dino Gaudio	24–7	11–5	T-2nd	NCAA First Round
2009–10	Dino Gaudio	20–11	9–7	T-5th	NCAA Second Round
2010–11	Jeff [name redacted]	8–24	1–15	12th
2011–12	Jeff [name redacted]	13–18	4–12	T-12th
2012–13	Jeff [name redacted]	13–18	6–12	T-9th
2013–14	Jeff [name redacted]	17-16	6-12	T-11th
2014–15	Danny Manning	13-19	5-13	12th

From March 2014

Despite the Buzz error, since Odom started in 1989, Wake is still ranked #22 in Top 25 appearances, #23 in Top 10 appearances, #25 in Top 5 appearances, and #23 in #1 appearances. For the more recent years during which Skip and Dino coached, Wake was #15 in Top 25, #15 in the Top 10, #17 in Top 5, and #15 in #1 appearances. 4 of the teams (UNC, Duke, Pitt, Cuse) consistently ahead of us in those rankings are in the ACC, and Louisville hovers right around where we are. So, that leaves less than 10 jobs that would be steps up that aren't in the ACC.

To claim, as you did, that we never won consistently in basketball is unsupportable by facts. Over a 20 year period, we were one of the best 20-25 teams in the nation.

 

[bobknightfan]

Racer we have had really great stretches of a few years in there like 1993 through 1997 and then we fell back down. The last few years of Carl Tacy and all the years of Bob Staak were terrible. We also had a good little run with Skip for a few years but as soon as Chris Paul left we were right back down to last place if you remember. Dino Gaudio did really well but got fired for whatever reason and now we are in an 6 year stretch of bad records. Ron Wellman's hiring of Jim Caldwell did not amount to anything for an 8 year run overall. We did have 3 really good years of football under Jim Grobe. Hopefully Dave Clawson and Danny Manning are going to turn us around from this mess we are in. We have to give any coach not named [name redacted] more than 2 years to see what they can do.

We made the post-season in every one of Carl Tacy's last 5 years.....including the Elite Eight in his next-to-last-year....and won 20+ games in 4 of the 5 years.

 

[wazimu mzungu]

The biggest difference is the bball team will be a shitload better next year gaining three shooters two of which should put mw firmly on the bench and two players with better post potential than Devin, with the possibility of sjm being comparably hard to defend in the post as DT is now by seasons end. So we replace one true loss with five bodies recruited by the same group that recruited Crawford, Collins and more in their first full cycle.

I like the chances of one of them being as good or better than our current tallest midget, DT, who is admittedly more than a lil better than the last one we had in McKie.

Crawford is better than cmm in year one and I like the chances of more than one of the new five to be better than whoever they put on the bench.

I don't have any advanced stats to back me up since it's pure conjecture, but at least it isn't an opinion rooted in toddler level emotionalism subsequent to the very recent results on the court.

Have some perspective and chill out.

Losing Thomas means more minutes from Moore and Collins... Plus we add two other front court bodies, one of which Thomas would likely not be able to keep off the blocks right now.

We lose cmm and gain three players who could not possibly shoot any worse. I like cmm, and can't stand wf22nerd, but gaining size and accuracy from deep will be a net positive.

I am sick of these losses, but equating any conference loss to Stetson or Iona and the drubbings at the hands of Carolina and Duke we took under bzz is laughable. Buying low and then selling low on a coach with manning's potential is not smart in my view, limited as it may be.

Also, I wonder if 6'10" springboard, Donovan Mitchell may turn out to be an even better defender than current stalwart, Dinos?? Nahhhhh, can't imagine that could help.

You're all right this is a terrible scary place and nothing will ever be good again until we ditch our coach who is already in the hall once as a player. We need to keep firing people every two years until those dumb old hall of fame coaches who are lining up at our doorstep are finally allowed in.

 

[RacerDeac]

The biggest difference is the bball team will be a shitload better next year gaining three shooters two of which should put mw firmly on the bench and two players with better post potential than Devin, with the possibility of sjm being comparably hard to defend in the post as DT is now by seasons end. So we replace one true loss with five bodies recruited by the same group that recruited Crawford, Collins and more in their first full cycle.

It's so very Wake Foresty that you are so sure we'll be better while relying on unheralded freshman to contribute significantly.

 

[wazimu mzungu]

It's so very Wake Foresty that you are so sure we'll be better while relying on unheralded freshman to contribute significantly.

I am on record and so are you...many times over...reaffirming how so very level headedy (did i do that right?) you are...every step of the way. Congrats my good fellow, you are another invaluably trashy voice on the internet.

 

[bobknightfan]

....and the drubbings at the hands of Carolina and Duke we took under bzz is laughable.

Manning has coached 5 games against Duke & Carolina......and he lost all 5 of them....by an average of 19.6 points. In one loss to Duke, the Blue Devils could have scored 0 points in the 2nd half and would have still won the game.

Buzz beat both Duke & Carolina in his last year before he was forced out.