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F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

And by exposing, I mean requiring. The fact that we employ teenage fuck ups as armed police is a big problem.
 
There’s plenty of evidence that bias training and community policing doesn’t work.
 
i think the "i live in the real world" trope is the last refuge of those who can't even imagine anything better and was kinda surprised you pulled it out tbh

abolition takes many forms and attitudes toward property change so I'm not interesting in having a reductive discussion about what the "real world" is when we could be discussing the efficacy of new and different ways of ensuring safety instead of just trying to mold the already existing police force into something new
 
Gun control, as it currently exists, is mainly enforced by police and the carceral state. I think under and abolitionists perspective, you have to reimagine gun safety without relying on carceral ideas.
 
maybe i've watched too much space race shit recently and maybe the metaphor doesn't work completely but

when they wanted to go to the moon (a sea change in thought/attitudes!) and realized the old capsules and rockets couldn't accomplish this they didn't try to retrofit the old gemini tech to accomplish the goal -- they started a new program and built a completely new rocket system from the ground up

our old police force has outlived its usefulness (protecting certain people from others) and it's time to construct new ways of keeping more people safe and healthy. we can't rely on the old rocket to get to the moon here. we have to build a new one.

don't you teach history? isn't it full of shifts in thought about property and humanity and safety? why is it so hard to think that what the 60s counterculture started is coming to fruition? and shouldn't we have a health and safety force that is more in line with this?

that's the real world to me.
 
TenaciousKory said:
i think the "i live in the real world" trope is the last refuge of those who can't even imagine anything better and was kinda surprised you pulled it out tbh

abolition takes many forms and attitudes toward property change so I'm not interesting in having a reductive discussion about what the "real world" is when we could be discussing the efficacy of new and different ways of ensuring safety instead of just trying to mold the already existing police force into something new
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That's fair and probably not my best retort, but I used it in response to the MHB's barb about how if it wasn't being floated by one of his snooty (and generally unsuccessful) organizations then it wasn't worth discussion.

At this point you have to work within the confines of our society or nothing will get accomplished. I'm a pretty progressive guy but even I understand that. Unless you intend on overthrowing the government and starting over, which may really be the only way to launch a reform of this magnitude at this point.

So work for gradual but substantive change, or create a violent and destabilizing revolution or war. As a student and teacher of history, those are your choices.
 
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stugotz said:
We'll also probably solve this issue with driverless cars in the next decade or so. It will be interesting to see how much of a reduction in the police force this results in.
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police departments are not going to give up their ever increasing budgets easily.
 
PhDeac said:
Getting rid of fines is good but that doesn’t help the violence.
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Lets take away the guns from the officers making traffic cops. Meter maids don't carry guns, why do cops that pull you over for a broken tail light need guns?
 
MHBDemon said:
Gun control, as it currently exists, is mainly enforced by police and the carceral state. I think under and abolitionists perspective, you have to reimagine gun safety without relying on carceral ideas.
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gun abolition, whatever you want to call it -- this includes disarming the police and massive decrease in armed forces

what does police abolition look like in a country of 350 million people where there are more guns than people?
 
thatguy2016 said:
not sure if serious
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stugotz said:
Yeah seriously. That's a crazy take. Before Uber I did so way more than I'd like to admit, was caught once when 22.
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go back to the original palma framing, where he was talking about drunk driving leading to injuries, that's clearly what i was talking about

idk how many dui hit and runs there are that never get arrested, if there is a stat for that, but i do know that there are millions of DUI arrests a year, and none of these bastard cops ever go to jail
 
TenaciousKory said:
maybe i've watched too much space race shit recently and maybe the metaphor doesn't work completely but

when they wanted to go to the moon (a sea change in thought/attitudes!) and realized the old capsules and rockets couldn't accomplish this they didn't try to retrofit the old gemini tech to accomplish the goal -- they started a new program and built a completely new rocket system from the ground up

our old police force has outlived its usefulness (protecting certain people from others) and it's time to construct new ways of keeping more people safe and healthy. we can't rely on the old rocket to get to the moon here. we have to build a new one.

don't you teach history? isn't it full of shifts in thought about property and humanity and safety? why is it so hard to think that what the 60s counterculture started is coming to fruition? and shouldn't we have a health and safety force that is more in line with this?

that's the real world to me.
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Didn't see this post before I had started my previous one....

The difference is that nobody had gone to the moon before. People have been "policing" communities since our first river valley villages.

People are always going to want some group to be around as a deterrent to violence, lawlessness and theft. Humans desire security. I'm all for a redistribution of police responsibilities and demilitarization but and the end of the day society wants somebody armed to show up when a violent crime is being committed.
 
BillBrasky said:
That's fair and probably not my best retort, but I used it in response to the MHB's barb about how if it wasn't being floated by one of his snooty (and generally unsuccessful) organizations then it wasn't worth discussion.

.
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I wasnt even thinking of any specific organizations. Presumably you know that there are dozens of groups/organizations, many that are Black-led that are organizing against police violence in cities across the country. Are they all snooty? Are they all not living in the real world?
 
MHBDemon said:
I wasnt even thinking of any specific organizations. Presumably you know that there are dozens of groups/organizations, many that are Black-led that are organizing against police violence in cities across the country. Are they all snooty? Are they all not living in the real world?
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Honestly I think it is just because you put off should a strong snooty intellectual vibe.

Your intentions are good, and our politics are pretty similar, but you seem to have your mind made up about everything and your solutions don't seem realistic most of the time.
 
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I really don’t get how asking you if you know of any community organizations proposing 4 year degrees is “snooty intellectual vibes” but whatever.
 
"Do you even history, bro?" is one of my favorite Tunnels retorts.

I'm kind of you on this though, Kory. Real reform is going to come from communities who completely rethinking public safety from the ground up, shift resources toward it, and reap specific benefits that can be understand using traditional and new metrics. The problem is that has to come from cities with support of states and to some extent the federal government.
 
BillBrasky said:
Didn't see this post before I had started my previous one....

The difference is that nobody had gone to the moon before. People have been "policing" communities since our first river valley villages.

People are always going to want some group to be around as a deterrent to violence, lawlessness and theft. Humans desire security. I'm all for a redistribution of police responsibilities and demilitarization but and the end of the day society wants somebody armed to show up when a violent crime is being committed.
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If what you're saying is true, then nobody going to the moon seems analogous with a future life sans state-sanctioned police force. We haven't really been there yet either, it sounds like. Which is what makes it such a difficult (read: seemingly impossible) goal.

To the Hobbesian take: sure. but I don't think there are any abolition calls for a future without security, so I don't quite understand your point there. My understanding of abolition is that it's about trying to imagine a world where security isn't framed solely around state violence. There's lots of discussion/approaches to this end - but the point remains that calls to reform the police can't participate in this because it's really about keeping that structure intact - trying to get to the moon with the old rocket.
 
PhDeac said:
"Do you even history, bro?" is one of my favorite Tunnels retorts.
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I mean it in the truest/most respectful sense because I'm genuinely surprised a historian played the "real world" card - in my mind historians are usually closer to cultural relativism - they're the first to raise their hand and say, "well actually, we used to think very differently about this than we do today."
 
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