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F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

What did the cop do besides say some words and shoot? No attempt to physically intervene.

I don’t understand why killing is a solution to killing here. I’m supposed to feel better because the government killed a girl?
 
It’s a terrible outcome.

One that should have everyone involved asking themselves how this might have been better handled.


The available evidence, however, is that the cop shot someone imminently threatening to harm or kill another person.


I doubt there will be a civil settlement with the government or criminal charges against the cop.


Doesn’t mean anyone should feel good about this.
 
PhDeac said:
What did the cop do besides say some words and shoot? No attempt to physically intervene.

I don’t understand why killing is a solution to killing here. I’m supposed to feel better because the government killed a girl?
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how would you suggest he physically restrain the girl with the knife and the dude kicking the girl in the face within a 3-second time window?

and of course you're not supposed to feel better. Be better than that strawman shit for fuck's sake.
 
The Tunnels' favorite historian weighs in with an assist from CBS News:

 
How is it a strawman if you all are sitting here arguing that one killing is better than possibly another killing?

Look I know the victim was a foster child, but imagine if she was your child. How would you want the cops to treat her? Wouldn’t you want them to at least try to stop this situation without killing her?
 
For those interested, Verso made the ebook of The End of Policing free to download. Can share a link if needed.
 
The history of police killing children in America
Ma’Khia Bryant, Adam Toledo, and law enforcement’s long tradition of policing and brutalizing Black and brown children.

https://www.vox.com/22394326/makhia-bryant-adam-toledo-police-killing

Maryam Gamar

Tamir Rice was holding a toy gun. Adam Toledo dropped his gun before police opened fire. Police often excuse firing their weapons because they thought their target was a threat, even if it’s a child. What does “posing a threat,” to the point that opening fire on the individual in question is necessary, actually mean?

Kristin Henning

It’s entirely subjective. Officers are trained to look for things like a weapon, and at face value, that sounds like a rational conclusion to make: person with weapon. But the misperception of an ambiguous uncertain object as a weapon is more likely to happen with a person of color than it is with a white person. The other thing that is important is this notion of speed — Tamir Rice was shot within two or three seconds after officers approached the scene, what I would call an avoidable situation. Had those officers slowed the situation down, they may have realized that his toy gun did not in fact pose a threat, and things may have turned out differently.

Another thing to consider is how to properly dispel threats instead of immediately firing. It’s almost impossible for an adult to process a request and then comply in two to three seconds. So think about how much more difficult that would have been for a 12-year-old who is terrified of the police. It was the same thing with Adam Toledo. The officer yelled a command, Adam tried to comply, but the officer still fired without giving the child the necessary time to process.
 
PhDeac said:
How is it a strawman if you all are sitting here arguing that one killing is better than possibly another killing?

Look I know the victim was a foster child, but imagine if she was your child. How would you want the cops to treat her? Wouldn’t you want them to at least try to stop this situation without killing her?
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because nobody is saying they feel good that the girl is dead.

again you are asking about "at least trying". I say the cop tried, in his four seconds on scene, to de-escalate the situation.

I'll ask again, since you are saying that words aren't enough and that he should have been physically intervening, how could he have effectively physically defused all 7 people at once? And by physically intervening, would he have risked escalating the situation?
 
I’m waiting for the book about the end of human avarice/greed, envy, suffering, hatred, violence, insecurity, fear, want, jealousy, strife, rage, attempts at peaceful civilization, need for rules/laws, etc.
 
ChrisL68 said:
I remember during the campaign when Biden suggested that cops perhaps shoot people in the extremities instead of a kill shot, the progressive response was how this demonstrated how completely out of touch he was. Now in this instance you have many progressives saying that this person should have been shot in the extremities instead of a kill shot.
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stugotz said:
It's almost as if progressives are unreasonable
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progressives are not the ones calling for extremity shots
 
I think Ph and others are right to question whether resorting to immediate gunfire was the right/best way for the officer to address the situation he found himself in. Unfortunately I think he reacted as he was trained to do and was well within the law on self defense/defense of others. There is no silver lining to the death of a young girl in these circumstances, but hopefully this situation and the many others like it are making more and more people realize that violent coercion as a first reaction is not how police should be trained and isn't the best way to keep our society safe.

I also don't think it is right to put Tamir Rice in the same category as Adam Toledo. Very different situations.
 
PhDeac said:
How is it a strawman if you all are sitting here arguing that one killing is better than possibly another killing?

Look I know the victim was a foster child, but imagine if she was your child. How would you want the cops to treat her? Wouldn’t you want them to at least try to stop this situation without killing her?
Click to expand...

So I will answer question phrased this way.

If my child ("Child 1") was attacking another child ("Child 2") with a deadly weapon, my hope would be that the cop would attempt to verbally intervene. If Child 1 disregards the verbal restraint, I would hope that the cop would have the time and presence of mind to fire a shot from a semiautomatic handgun in the air in an attempt to de-escalate. If Child 1 leaves the cop no choice, I hope Child 1 is not mortally wounded. So on these facts, I don't know if the cop had enough time to fire a nonlethal shot. If he had that time, I would hope he would.

Now what if your child was Child 2? What would you want? For instance, eight years ago today Jamie Hahn was stabbed to death in her own home by a long-time friend. I imagine her parents wished that a good guy with a gun was there that night.
 
PhDeac said:
How is it a strawman if you all are sitting here arguing that one killing is better than possibly another killing?

Look I know the victim was a foster child, but imagine if she was your child. How would you want the cops to treat her? Wouldn’t you want them to at least try to stop this situation without killing her?
Click to expand...

Imagine it was your child about to be stabbed to death by another person. Would you not want the police to stop that from happening, even if it meant that they had the kill that person to stop her from stabbing your child?
 
deac29 said:
Imagine it was your child about to be stabbed to death by another person. Would you not want the police to stop that from happening, even if it meant that they had the kill that person to stop her from stabbing your child?
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I mean, real dads teach their kids how to disarm attackers using various martial arts techniques the children have been taught from an early age.
 
MichDeac25 said:
Ph - have you watched the video?
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Yes. Once.

Based on the line of questioning from deac29 and jhmd, it seems like there’s a different standard for how people would want their cops to treat their child vs someone else’s child.
 
I'm pretty sure I'd want the cops to protect my child from a psycho with a knife too.
 
BiffTannen said:
I'm pretty sure I'd want the cops to protect my child from a psycho with a knife too.
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Would you want the cops to protect someone else’s child from your child?
 
So far the only actual witness statement I have seen is on body cam footage from the girl in pink, exclaiming that girl tried to stab me immediately after the incident. All other statements are from character witnesses/family/people who heard/observed the aftermath.
 
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