F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

[RJKarl]

don't know about this six months prison idea, but police forces in other civilized countries generally have a practice of retreating from dangerous situations, then containing them and ending them peacefully. See all the stories about how the German cops fired 85 bullets total in 2011. In the US we have this John Wayne Dirty Harry culture that tells police they are huge weaklings if they do that. They are trained and encouraged to end situations violently and "win" physically. If they do they are glorified. Equipping them all with military gear just amps it up to another level. I think as a society we could be every bit as safe if our police acted more like German police, but the police wouldn't get to beat up and shoot as many people.

When cops can order military vehicles and tanks to guard a pumpkin festival, their collective psyches are in bizarro places. In too many cities, the police are virtually above the law. They will not held accountable for what they do.

The fact that politicians cower and the NRA spends countless millions making them genuflect doesn't help either.

 

[SkinsNDeacs]

Life is life, even for criminals. It's obviously a theory, so getting hung up on "six months" is missing the point. There should be a legal deterent for taking a life that counteracts the brevado and over zealousness that rights of self protection have created.

Life is not life. If a mad man shoots my wife, shoots my kid and turns the gun on me with the intention to kill me but I am able to kill him first then I don't give two shits about his life. And no sane society would punish me for that. You seem to be getting hung up on what is justifiable self defense...there is such a thing. If you want to impose a more strict definition of self defense that could be argued but to do away with the concept is beyond extreme.

 

[SkinsNDeacs]

don't know about this six months prison idea, but police forces in other civilized countries generally have a practice of retreating from dangerous situations, then containing them and ending them peacefully. See all the stories about how the German cops fired 85 bullets total in 2011. In the US we have this John Wayne Dirty Harry culture that tells police they are huge weaklings if they do that. They are trained and encouraged to end situations violently and "win" physically. If they do they are glorified. Equipping them all with military gear just amps it up to another level. I think as a society we could be every bit as safe if our police acted more like German police, but the police wouldn't get to beat up and shoot as many people.

Pos Rep

 

[ImTheCaptain]

not criticising, i think it makes sense. i don't understand how the germans would handle mexico border/cartel and gang situations, though

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

Life is not life. If a mad man shoots my wife, shoots my kid and turns the gun on me with the intention to kill me but I am able to kill him first then I don't give two shits about his life. And no sane society would punish me for that. You seem to be getting hung up on what is justifiable self defense...there is such a thing. If you want to impose a more strict definition of self defense that could be argued but to do away with the concept is beyond extreme.

You can't seem to seperate "self defense" from killing someone. If you still legally own a gun, it's obviously within your means to defend yourself to whatever extent you prefer, that doesn't mean that your choice should go without legal consequence, as dramatic and egregious a hypothetical as you can think up.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

You can't seem to seperate "self defense" from killing someone. If you still legally own a gun, it's obviously within your means to defend yourself to whatever extent you prefer, that doesn't mean that your choice should go without legal consequence, as dramatic and egregious a hypothetical as you can think up.

there is a legal consequence, even in those situations

 

[DistrictDeacon]

You can't seem to seperate "self defense" from killing someone. If you still legally own a gun, it's obviously within your means to defend yourself to whatever extent you prefer, that doesn't mean that your choice should go without legal consequence, as dramatic and egregious a hypothetical as you can think up.

So what should someone do in that situation?

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I already covered an exception for home invasion anyway. No one is fucking rioting over hime invaders being killed.

 

[PhDeac]

Skins, what about self-defense from a cop?

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Skins, what about self-defense from a cop?

Obviously cops should not be shooting people who do not pose threats. That said, if you legitimately physically assault a cop (not the drunk chick flailing her arms), then I don't have much sympathy for you getting shot. Common sense, Darwinism, etc.

 

[SkinsNDeacs]

You can't seem to seperate "self defense" from killing someone. If you still legally own a gun, it's obviously within your means to defend yourself to whatever extent you prefer, that doesn't mean that your choice should go without legal consequence, as dramatic and egregious a hypothetical as you can think up.

I think you are the one that can't separate them. You said mandatory 6 month sentence for any self defense killing.

 

[SkinsNDeacs]

Skins, what about self-defense from a cop?

Each situation is different but I can absolutely think of a scenario of a justified killing of a police officer in self-defense. The video of the no knock invasion of the wrong house posted earlier on this thread could have very easily gone down that road.

 

[PhDeac]

Obviously cops should not be shooting people who do not pose threats. That said, if you legitimately physically assault a cop (not the drunk chick flailing her arms), then I don't have much sympathy for you getting shot. Common sense, Darwinism, etc.

Obviously cops sometimes do what they should not do.

What if after the Wilson shot Brown twice, Brown shot the cop? Would that be considered self-defense?

 

[PhDeac]

Each situation is different but I can absolutely think of a scenario of a justified killing of a police officer in self-defense. The video of the no knock invasion of the wrong house posted earlier on this thread could have very easily gone down that road.

Right. Would someone be justified to kill a cop who invaded their home?

 

[SkinsNDeacs]

Right. Would someone be justified to kill a cop who invaded their home?

Again, would need more context but I could absolutely see a scenario where that is possible.

 

[jimbob]

Whether it be the radio call in or police sources to the STL dispatcher the groundwork conceivably seems to be being laid for the county prosecutor to decide not to bring charges.

Needless to say this won't go over too well with the people protesting. The spotlight would then fall on Holder and his civil rights investigation.

Bottom line is it is sickening how the Cops have leaked completely their side of the story to the press while failing to provide an incident report or use of force report. They've then compounded these mistakes by allowing their fear of a lot of black people together to lead to the emptying out of the armory in a "show of force" to theoretically deter protesters.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

Right. Would someone be justified to kill a cop who invaded their home?

is the cop invading to murder or rob them or conducting police business?

this is a dumb line of thinking; the police obviously have rights to conduct police work that the laws/courts/society deemed to supersede an individual's right

 

[PhDeac]

is the cop invading to murder or rob them or conducting police business?

this is a dumb line of thinking; the police obviously have rights to conduct police work that the laws/courts/society deemed to supersede an individual's right

It's unclear unless the cops make it clear. Would you let somebody come in your house and threaten your family under the guise of "police business?"

 

[bigdoublezero]

Another good idea is to have independent investigations and prosecutions when police are in firing incidents like they just initiated in Wisconsin. When cops know they can act out with little to no consequence, they will. When citizens understand this, too, they grow resentful, distrustful, and just plain angry.

 

[TownieDeac]

I'm not typically one to fall for the "slippery slope" fallacy, but what is the next step in America's police forces? Do we approach the issue of paramilitarization and take a long hard look at the road it leads us down, or do we not generally see it as a problem? Seems like a good time to address the direction of police forces in America.

A big part of the issue stems from both personnel entering police forces and from what to do with decommissioned military equipment. Personnel seem undereducated and overly aggressive (though I don't know to what extent this is new or a trend, or just stereotypical). And as far as equipment, I'd rather it be rusting in a warehouse somewhere than in places where even the military suggests it doesn't belong.

But where does a discussion like this even start? The Department of Justice? What is the national governing body of police like?

And if we have a hard time scaling back guns from citizens because of the gun lobby, how will we possibly have the political capital to do the same with those who are, you know, actually tasked with protecting and serving our citizenry?