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F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

The necessity of a *lives matter campaign would depend upon whether or not that subset of people were being fairly served and protected by the American criminal justice system, as compared to the rest of the population. I don't know anything about the deaths, were they killed by police officers under questionable circumstances? If they were killed by the police, is there any precedent of criminal suspects surviving similar circumstances? Are the officers who killed those men being held legally accountable for their actions in accordance with due justice?

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Do you think our justice system is fair? I don't. The powerful and wealthy routinely get away with crimes that destroy the lives of average people. We would agree many white people are being unfairly treated by the justice system on a daily basis- there's no debate about that, right? And we almost never hear about what happens to them. Would you be opposed to a group set up to publicize and protest the white victims of police injustice/violence?
 
Do you think our justice system is fair? I don't. The powerful and wealthy routinely get away with crimes that destroy the lives of average people. We would agree many white people are being unfairly treated by the justice system on a daily basis- there's no debate about that, right? And we almost never hear about what happens to them. Would you be opposed to a group set up to publicize and protest the white victims of police injustice/violence?
Yes, I think our justice system is consistently fair to many. No, I don't believe that white Americans are treated unjustly in comparison to the whole. No, I don't believe that a "white lives matter" movement would be necessary or helpful. As a relatively amorphous majority population set, the daily experience of white people is less affected by racial experience than racial minority subsets.

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The "whiteness" of white people is really only significant in our lack of a distinct racial or cultural identity. Italians are Italians, Irish are Irish, etc. We are only the same in that we aren't POC

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Black people are only culturally monolithic because they were stolen, stripped of their unique African nationality, and then given an identity as "other American, less than white". Notice that Latin American and Caribbean Island immigrants tend to maintain their individual national identities, and only loosely associate under the ethnographic Spanish language region.

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Pre-K boys are way more dangerous and warrant way more scrutiny than Pre-K girls. As a rule, of course. But if you are just asking a teacher to look in on a group of four with nothing else to go on, that is who they should focus on. Doesn't explain the racial disparities, but didn't the study suggest that the bias went black male, white male, white female, black female? That doesn't suggest inherent racial bias to me nearly as much as gender bias, and the gender bias is totally justified for children of that age.

Wow. So apparently you think being black causes people to cause problems that police need to be involved with.
 
Take BLM out of the equation. We have five white men who were killed on the same day as Keith Lamont. But there was not the plethora of message board posts, tweets, news coverage, etc. There were no protests and no one knows their names. Do you think it would be a good idea to have a White Lives Matter movement to try and bring these cases out of the shadows and make the public aware of them, so that all lives matter?

What were their situations? Were they armed?
 
Geez this thread moves fast. Don't y'all have jobs?

No, actually this was not the claim! The claim was that institutions reflect, reinforce, and perpetuate biases, not generate them. American bias against soccer, for the sake of your analogy, is underpinned and perpetuated by its lack of popularity in the US (and, thus, its lack of coverage and fanbase), but biases are born out of early experiences and socio-cultural training.

The truth is, soccer is boring or pretentious or uninteresting or whatever, and for those reasons you hate it. You aren't actually implicitly biased against it. It's not a great analogy for that reason.

The answer, of course, is yes: everyone has implicit biases (though not everyone acts on them in the same ways). The difference -- and the crux of the particular argument I'm positing -- is that it is primarily (but not exclusively) biases against black people that are institutionally- and structurally-enacted in American society.

Yes, the example of racist stereotyping you offer here is not systemic but cultural. That's not always the case. An example of system racism at the DMV -- and I'm just making this up, here -- would be if some of the documentation required to obtain a license, for instance, wasn't equally available to all races because of certain government policies which made more difficult the process of obtaining it.

I honestly cannot follow what you are saying, you are going in a circle. If institutions reflect, reinforce, and perpetuate bias, then that bias is coming from whoever makes up the institutions. But then you are saying that institutions are primarily biased against black people. Currently, the actual institutional structure has very, very few examples of government policies that on their face make things more difficult for black people. The people implementing the structure might be biased against black people for whatever reason (personal experience, wild rumors, etc), but that doesn't make the structure biased.


The rare, authentic OGB example of the Strawman Fallacy.

Just to be clear, the example of 2&2's discriminatory hiring practices is in no way the product of implicit bias. Y'all are talking past each other like crazy. 2&2 keeps posting examples of cultural and experiential bias -- viz. hot grill, soccer, asian women drivers, not hiring women that might become pregnant -- arguing (correctly) that these aren't examples of implicit bias even though no one said they were.

2&2 and BKF, any thoughts about my responses to you above?

You have yet to provide your definition and/or examples of implicit bias. I don't deny that it exists, my position is that it is mostly an irrelevant concern that is simply used to make excuses.
 
Thanks for responding. My response in bold (and one bit of your quote, emphasized).

I honestly cannot follow what you are saying, you are going in a circle. If institutions reflect, reinforce, and perpetuate bias, then that bias is coming from whoever makes up the institutions. But then you are saying that institutions are primarily biased against black people. Currently, the actual institutional structure has very, very few examples of government policies that on their face make things more difficult for black people. The people implementing the structure might be biased against black people for whatever reason (personal experience, wild rumors, etc), but that doesn't make the structure biased.

Isn't it exactly that which makes them implicit? While I don't agree that my logic here is circular, I do think you're right to point out that it is a self-perpetuating system. The key bit I think you're missing is that the kind of institutional structures I'm thinking about here -- e.g. government, pecuniary, educational -- have been biased in this country for a long, long time, so it's extremely difficult to pin down the kind of personal experience/wild rumors kind of bias that you are willing to attribute as cause. Instead, and people with a much better grasp of American history can help me out here, many of these institutions have their structural origins -- whether legal or in cultural practice -- in the 19th century or, in the very least, pre-Civil Rights America when these biases were codified as law.


You have yet to provide your definition and/or examples of implicit bias. I don't deny that it exists, my position is that it is mostly an irrelevant concern that is simply used to make excuses.

My definition is pretty straightforward and the examples have been well-documented in this thread and others: it is simply unseen and often unacknowledged racial prejudices that affect the way we behave and think. Many of these, I'd argue, have been long codified into law or at least become acceptable as cultural practices. I mean, I literally caught on to this in Elementary School when I realized that the reason I was scared of black people in Kindergarten was because I'd never shared a neighborhood or classroom or local pool with one. And all three of those examples of acceptable discrimination have their roots in institutional and systemic racist practices.
 
Thanks for responding. My response in bold (and one bit of your quote, emphasized).

My definition is pretty straightforward and the examples have been well-documented in this thread and others: it is simply unseen and often unacknowledged racial prejudices that affect the way we behave and think. Many of these, I'd argue, have been long codified into law or at least become acceptable as cultural practices. I mean, I literally caught on to this in Elementary School when I realized that the reason I was scared of black people in Kindergarten was because I'd never shared a neighborhood or classroom or local pool with one. And all three of those examples of acceptable discrimination have their roots in institutional and systemic racist practices.

But I just don't see how that is any different than any other bias (which I think of more as personal preference). In any micro interaction, both sides enter with preconceived notions based on their personal preferences. A black person may be more favorable to another black person than a white person; a fat person may be favorable to another fat person, while an in-shape person may not like the fat person; redheads; stupid people; rich people; poor people; preppy dressers; whiggas; athletes; handicapped people; old people; young people; smelly people; southern accents. In every situation unless the two people are exactly the same, which is extremely rare, there is going to be some leanings one way or another based on experience. We are never going to eliminate those preferences, nor do I think should we. People should be allowed whatever preferences they want, whether or not society views them as "right" or "wrong", it encourages diversity. And therefore, I think highlighting certain implicit biases as a negative, while ignoring the thousands of others that exist, is just pandering and making excuses for poor performance, often even before the poor performance even happens.
 
But I just don't see how that is any different than any other bias (which I think of more as personal preference). In any micro interaction, both sides enter with preconceived notions based on their personal preferences. A black person may be more favorable to another black person than a white person; a fat person may be favorable to another fat person, while an in-shape person may not like the fat person; redheads; stupid people; rich people; poor people; preppy dressers; whiggas; athletes; handicapped people; old people; young people; smelly people; southern accents. In every situation unless the two people are exactly the same, which is extremely rare, there is going to be some leanings one way or another based on experience. We are never going to eliminate those preferences, nor do I think should we. People should be allowed whatever preferences they want, whether or not society views them as "right" or "wrong", it encourages diversity. And therefore, I think highlighting certain implicit biases as a negative, while ignoring the thousands of others that exist, is just pandering and making excuses for poor performance, often even before the poor performance even happens.

Ok -- I don't disagree with this, in general, but we aren't at all come to stasis here. The way I'm understanding your argument (and correct me if I've got it wrong), is that you see these examples of bias as being experiential, personal, and in flux, while I'm concerned about the ways in which those small-scale feelings are codified and end up discriminating against a population. The whole purpose of the much-maligned phrase "check your privilege" is about examining those implicit biases and trying to figure out which exactly are "personal preferences," to use your phrase, and which are structural and institutional.

You're very right to think about micro interactions that way, because when you pass someone on the street whatever biases you both bring to the table are essentially harmless. The key for me, is that I am talking about how these implicit biases are reproduced institutionally and structurally -- so much so that they are often invisible -- which have repercussions broader than the kind of individual judgements and interactions you talk about here. That same situation in the street becomes a lot more problematic when one of the two people is carrying a gun, for instance. or furthermore, if that gun-carrier is a police officer. That police officer isn't exclusively acting on his personal preference or experience, but also as representative of an institution that has (for the sake of example) policed and imprisoned black men disproportionately to other groups of people.

Surely you see the difference between the kind of biases that cause you to discriminate solely on the basis of an inherit trait (race or hair color or nationality, e.g.) versus smelly people or young people or athletes, right? This does get tricky and fuel arguments, for instance, when we talk about overweight and disabled people.

So TL;DR, your examples, though falsely equivalent, may very well lead to biased thoughts or behaviors on your part, but they generally aren't what I've been calling implicit because you are acting on preference and experience rather than socio-cultural training.
 
Ok -- I don't disagree with this, in general, but we aren't at all come to stasis here. The way I'm understanding your argument (and correct me if I've got it wrong), is that you see these examples of bias as being experiential, personal, and in flux, while I'm concerned about the ways in which those small-scale feelings are codified and end up discriminating against a population. The whole purpose of the much-maligned phrase "check your privilege" is about examining those implicit biases and trying to figure out which exactly are "personal preferences," to use your phrase, and which are structural and institutional. Again, I don't know of many, if any, biases that are currently formally codified. Interpretation can certainly be biased, but the codification really isn't.

You're very right to think about micro interactions that way, because when you pass someone on the street whatever biases you both bring to the table are essentially harmless. The key for me, is that I am talking about how these implicit biases are reproduced institutionally and structurally -- so much so that they are often invisible -- which have repercussions broader than the kind of individual judgements and interactions you talk about here. That same situation in the street becomes a lot more problematic when one of the two people is carrying a gun, for instance. or furthermore, if that gun-carrier is a police officer. That police officer isn't exclusively acting on his personal preference or experience, but also as representative of an institution that has (for the sake of example) policed and imprisoned black men disproportionately to other groups of people. But on the flip side, the vast majority of that disproportionate imprisonment arises from a corresponding disproportionate commission of crimes by black men. So that bias is not totally unjustified. In individual situations that bias shouldn't overtly manifest itself in terms of actual interaction, but if the police's job is to protect society as a whole, then I have no problem of the bias creating a higher level of suspicion.

Surely you see the difference between the kind of biases that cause you to discriminate solely on the basis of an inherit trait (race or hair color or nationality, e.g.) versus smelly people or young people or athletes, right? This does get tricky and fuel arguments, for instance, when we talk about overweight and disabled people. Not really. At a specific moment in time, the young person can change his age as much as someone can change their race. The athletic person's abilities are as innate as race. Handicaps and scents and weight and socioeconomic status are often as static as race or nationality.

So TL;DR, your examples, though falsely equivalent, may very well lead to biased thoughts or behaviors on your part, but they generally aren't what I've been calling implicit because you are acting on preference and experience rather than socio-cultural training. Preference and experience are often a product of socio-cultural training. Where else do they primarily come from?

Responses above.
 
Do BLM care when white people are shot by the police or is there a lack of concern, if there is any notice at all? Should we start a White Lives Matter movement for all the white deaths that are ignored? Would that be racist?

Plenty of black and white deaths at the hands of police are ignored. Only a small number make the mainstream media. There have been BLM backed protests on the behalf of white victims though.

Where is the All Lives Matter crowd on all these lives though?
 
Responses above.

I think we're as close as we're going to get here to an understanding. Here is where I disagree with your response:

1) I disagree that there aren't formally codified biases. I believe -- along with the BLM movement and others -- that this is a major problem that deserves our attention.
2) If true, a "disproportionate commission of crimes by black men" is due, in part, to our biases in investigating, charging, and imprisoning them (thus, codified bias in practice)
3) We disagree about what makes a trait "inherent" -- I don't think youth qualifies (and, in fact, we have plenty of "discriminatory" laws against youth like the drinking age, driving age, etc.) You are right, obviously, in pointing out that people can't change their athletic ability or their natural smell, but we don't generally have laws discriminating against unathletic people or stinky people.
4) Re: that last bit, you're not getting it -- perhaps I'm not explaining it well because I don't really have the proper vocabulary to do so. Preference and experience are not included in what I'm calling implicit bias -- what I mean by "socio-cultural training" is the extra-personal, non-experiential training that derives specifically from the institutional structures in which we live.
 
Fuck all those kids who are born blind. Coddling them is the fucking problem. There is no need for seeing-eye dogs, special needs classrooms, braille, or any other effort to make it easier for them to live in the world. The successful blind kids will be the ones who learn how to deal with it, don't fall off of a cliff, and move on.

:werd:
 
Extremely sad. One of the children shot at the school in SC has died.
 
So many irresponsible gun owners. It's infuriating. We need to move to only smart guns and get rid of all other guns. And get much more serious about subjecting all gun owners to a series of mental health tests and interviews. And limit the number of guns a person can own to one.
 
All the victims of gun violence, and supporters of those who are victims, need to march on Washington and demand we get rational when it comes to the gun laws in this country.
 
Obama is such a fucking loser. Had he not wasted all of his political capital on the shitshow of Obamacare, perhaps he could have done something about gun control. Even with that, why has he done nothing when it is an issue he purports to care about? If he actually had some balls, which we know he doesn't, he would do the following:

1. Execute an executive order instructing ATF to run a 20-day buy-back program for all handguns at 3x their current market value.

2. After the conclusion of that buyback, and without having told anyone in advance, execute another executive order instructing ATF to cease issuing manufacturing and sale permits of handguns, and to revoke all existing FFLs for handgun sale (not affecting rifles and shotguns). Obviously that would be immediately challenged, but force the Supreme Court to address the specific issue as to whether the right to bear arms for a well regulated militia includes handguns separate from long guns.

But he won't, because he is a giant lying pussy just like every other politician, despite his unique position to single-handedly have an impact. Hope and change, motherfuckers. And obviously Hillary won't do shit about it either.
 
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