F is for Fascism (Ferguson MO)

[Deacs89]

Bless your heart.

Oh man you got me good

 

[RChildress107]

OK, I stand corrected in that I now see that the entire post was in quotes. My apologies to you for attributing the last past of that post to you when it was a continuation of what that author said. Still, what he said in that last part, beginning with "And there isn't." really makes no sense, because there is really no point to it. It has nothing to do with why "black lives matter"....which is really a bogus argument in this entire thing anyway. Who is it, exactly, that thinks "black lives don't matter"? (And be careful before you answer, because this is a trap question.)

People who say shit like this:

Well, my feelings don't count. The law is all that matters here....and as of now the law has determined that Brown was responsible for his own death.

If the law determines that the people looting stores, burning buildings and engaging in inciting riots are not guilty of committing any crimes, then I guess your feelings about that won't matter, either.

Whether you like it or not, we live in a nation of laws. If people don't approve of the laws they can elect representatives to change them......but until that happens, the law has to have the final say in these matters.

Apparently, in your world, neither does Michael Brown.

With so many worthy people in this world to extend sympathy upon, criminals are not on my list.

 

[RChildress107]

You truly are a fucking idiot

I must have missed all of the empathy you showed on this thread for Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and Tamir Rice.

 

[Deacs89]

I must have missed all of the empathy you showed on this thread for Michael Brown, Eric Garner, and Tamir Rice.

Proof you are an idiot

 

[ONW]

Cops in the US kill about 150 black people per year

Black people in the US kill about 7,000 - 8,000 black people per year.

Why don't black people think black lives matter unless they are killed by a cop?

This isn't helping.

 

[poonmonger]

There's not a whole lot of logic in these parts. Which is strange since Towie contends he's the most intelligent person on earth.

 

[Milhouse]

play that fiddle

 

[Wakeforest22890]

What is hypocritical about what anyone on here has said?

 

[RChildress107]

Judging from early responses to your post, the truth hits pretty hard when it contradicts the predetermined ivory tower world view of some posters on this board.

(And I didn't mention that black protesters who loot & burn neighborhood businesses....many of which are owned by other black people....must not think that black lives, or any other lives, matter.)

This thread is full of righteous hypocrisy.

ETA: "Oh, for fuck's sake" is a helluva rebuttal. I've got to remember that one if I'm ever accused of anything in a courtroom.

Bob, your posts on this thread are confirming the need for the hashtag.

You seem to think that instances of black people behaving badly disprove the existence of systemic racism and/or negate the black community's right to complain about it.

The fact that you cite your participation in the civil rights movement to give yourself the moral high ground makes things worse.


An overall summary of your posts could be:

"I worked hard to help the black community get civil rights in the 60's and 70's but since then they have squandered the gift I helped give them by killing each other and having too many babies. They wasted equality the first time so why should I care if they are reaping what they sowed"


Everything about your posts has implicitly (though not intentionally) stated that black lives matter only if the community as a whole meets certain expectations.

 

[jhmd2000]

I don't really like the hashtag #blacklivesmatter for a few reasons, but it certainly reads as a cry for help. I thought "I Can't Breathe" was an effective symbol, though, and it was important to see athletes and celebrities take up the rhetorical cause, even if short-lived. Rhetoric is always important. It's important because of the way we talk about events like this Eric Garner and Tamir Rice and John Crawford.

The tragic cop shooting in NYC was accurately painted that way, both on the news and in the police commissioner's statement. The latter said "let's call it what it is, an assassination." The frankness and candor of the remark really stuck out. It was an assassination. It's also the kind of talk you heard when emotions ran high when evidence started to come out in the Tamir Rice case. There's an effective, purposeful, long-standing institution within the justice system meant to grant law enforcement vast impunity, generally regardless of their actions or evidence of impropriety. It goes beyond "innocent until proven guilty." To an extent, it's warranted. But it makes for long odds that justice will ever be served when a kid like Tamir Rice gets gunned down for something so benign and innocent. It devalues his life, his young, black life. Whether or not Michael Brown's killer deserved an indictment, the prosecutor didn't try. He even went so far as to present false evidence purposefully. The affirmation that black lives matter is not one that's meant to begrudge others their right to life, or even suggest that people don't value black life. It's a reminder against daily injustice. It's a flawed message, but it's like so many effete euphemisms you hear at funerals about going to better places and passing on, it's an aphorism of empathy and pathos.

It's striking that in the face of all this, the past ten pages are wrought with attacks on the black community. Calls for basic human empathy are drowned out by raw, unfeeling politic. I think there's far more common ground on this thread than there is difference, but people contort their consciences to exculpate poor decisions all around, whether they be made by police officers with nothing to lose or regular citizens with everything to lose.

Okay, agree to disagree on some of this. The disagree part is the presumptuous you display by assuming that people who don't agree with your chosen course of action for social and economic improvement "lack empathy." Maybe they just disagree as to the means and methods.

Also, it seems to me that if you had the chance to phrase this bolded part again, you would do so. Three officers killed in the last 36 hours would disagree that they had nothing to lose.

 

[jhmd2000]

I referred in the bolded phrase to police officers who made poor decisions. I'm not sure that applies to the officers you're mentioning.

#theirlivesmattertoo or do they just get left completely out of your definition of the universe of the problem?

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

Bob, your posts on this thread are confirming the need for the hashtag.

You seem to think that instances of black people behaving badly disprove the existence of systemic racism and/or negate the black community's right to complain about it.

The fact that you cite your participation in the civil rights movement to give yourself the moral high ground makes things worse.


An overall summary of your posts could be:

"I worked hard to help the black community get civil rights in the 60's and 70's but since then they have squandered the gift I helped give them by killing each other and having too many babies. They wasted equality the first time so why should I care if they are reaping what they sowed"


Everything about your posts has implicitly (though not intentionally) stated that black lives matter only if the community as a whole meets certain expectations.

I'm never one to defend BKF, but I don't think that is what he is saying at all. His point, if I understand him correctly, is that all of a sudden there are public accusations that black lives don't matter to "white America" or "the system". But based on the stats, black lives "matter" a whole hulluva lot more to white America and the system than they do to black America. So if people want to maximize their change and make black lives matter, then aim the accusations at the group most responsible for black lives not mattering.
Now that doesn't mean that white America and the system shouldn't do their part and try to improve where deficiencies exist, but don't act like they are the primary cause.

Why aren't Kobe and D-Rose wearing "stop gang violence" on their pre-game warmups?

 

[RChildress107]

I'm never one to defend BKF, but I don't think that is what he is saying at all. His point, if I understand him correctly, is that all of a sudden there are public accusations that black lives don't matter to "white America" or "the system". But based on the stats, black lives "matter" a whole hulluva lot more to white America and the system than they do to black America. So if people want to maximize their change and make black lives matter, then aim the accusations at the group most responsible for black lives not mattering.
Now that doesn't mean that white America and the system shouldn't do their part and try to improve where deficiencies exist, but don't act like they are the primary cause.

Why aren't Kobe and D-Rose wearing "stop gang violence" on their pre-game warmups?

First bold is an underlying cause.

Second bold simply isn't true.

Third bold is a symptom.

I think the enlarged text represents the fundamental disagreement. IMO, if you think the system of institutional discrimination was either mostly eradicated in the 60's or not the primary cause of violence, absentee fathers, unemployment, etc. in the minority community then you have your head in the sand.

 

[knowell]

First bold is an underlying cause.

Second bold simply isn't true.

Third bold is a symptom.

I think the enlarged text represents the fundamental disagreement. IMO, if you think the system of institutional discrimination was either mostly eradicated in the 60's or not the primary cause of violence, absentee fathers, unemployment, etc. in the minority community then you have your head in the sand.

This is just foolishness. You want to blame all of this on white racism. This country has never been less racist. No country on earth has ever bent so far backwards to try and prevent racism at all levels. There will never be anything that can be done to satisfy you. You want equality of outcome. That cannot be legislated.

 

[tjcmd]

This is just foolishness. You want to blame all of this on white racism. This country has never been less racist. No country on earth has ever bent so far backwards to try and prevent racism at all levels. There will never be anything that can be done to satisfy you. You want equality of outcome. That cannot be legislated.

Now that health care is affordable, why doesn't the President give us the Equal Outcomes Act? Everybody is getting rich. I want to get rich, too.

 

[Deacon923]

d923 posts the Atlantic.

And Howard Safir, a former NYPD commissioner, wrote this in Time: "When Ismaaiyl Abdulah Brinsley brutally executed Officers Ramos and Liu he did so in an atmosphere of permissiveness and anti-police rhetoric unlike any that I have seen in 45 years in law enforcement. The rhetoric this time is not from the usual suspects, but from the Mayor of New York City, the Attorney General of the United States, and even the President. It emboldens criminals and sends a message that every encounter a black person has with a police officer is one to be feared."

Notably, none of these intellectually dishonest statements quote or link to any actual rhetoric spoken by Mayor de Blasio, Eric Holder, or President Obama. That is because none of them has uttered so much as a single word that even hints that violently attacking a police officer, let alone murdering one, would be justified. Suggesting that their words are responsible for this murder is discrediting. Even the weaker claim that their words "embolden criminals" is absurd, both as a matter of logic and as a statement made amid historically low crime rates.

With regard to the particular crime of killing police officers, "the number of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty—that is, killed with felonious intent by a suspected criminal—plummeted to 27 in 2013, its lowest level in decades." That is the Obama/Holder record on this issue. We needn't speculate about whether their rhetoric has proved dangerous for police. We know that it has not.

"it's possible to both be appalled by senseless executions of cops and angry at unjustified killings by cops." Those positions are not in tension with one another. They are both consistent the with individualist premise that all lives are valuable, as well as the belief that both police and non-police should act lawfully and justly.

Seems to me that both sides on this thread need to take a step back and try thinking about human beings as human beings, not just anonymous parts of a group.

Carry on.

ETA: more good stuff from the article:

I see nothing wrong with criticizing people who urged or expressed affinity for actual violence against police, even as the bulk of responsibility must belong to the murderer alone. But NYPD defenders are engaged in an attempt to discredit even criticism of police that is totally nonviolent. Theirs is an attempt to squelch legitimate political debate by irrationally associating it with the deeds of a suicidal murderer.

That is scurrilous behavior.

The context is the election of a mayor who is less sycophantic in his relationship to the NYPD than his predecessors, Rudy Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg. Too many police officers are reacting to this duly elected city leader with petulant histrionics that veer uncomfortably close to disdain for civilian, democratic control.

 

[jhmd2000]

First bold is an underlying cause.

Second bold simply isn't true.

Third bold is a symptom.

I think the enlarged text represents the fundamental disagreement. IMO, if you think the system of institutional discrimination was either mostly eradicated in the 60's or not the primary cause of violence, absentee fathers, unemployment, etc. in the minority community then you have your head in the sand.

And another cause in far too many cases is poor decision making, and I would argue, a more acute and less attenuated cause than housing policy from two generations ago. Perhaps I missed the hordes of wildly successful white high school dropout parents, who had the privilege of benefiting from those policies. Link?

Then again, I lack empathy because I find the status quo unacceptable and do not agree with continuing failed policies.

 

[knowell]

d923 posts the Atlantic.


Seems to me that both sides on this thread need to take a step back and try thinking about human beings as human beings, not just anonymous parts of a group.

Carry on.

ETA: more good stuff from the article:

I agree with your statement, but not with the article. Lots of justifying in the article. Granted that no one in the movement was hoping for someone to kill cops, you cannot inflame racial tension to a boiling point and then claim "not my fault" when someone on the fringe blows away two cops. This man was not upset at the over militarization of the police. He felt that people of his race were at war with police. Those that pushed the rhetoric cannot just absolve themselves.

 

[wfumike02]

d923 posts the Atlantic.






Seems to me that both sides on this thread need to take a step back and try thinking about human beings as human beings, not just anonymous parts of a group.

Carry on.

ETA: more good stuff from the article:

Another good one:

N.Y. cops union head doesn't get it

 

[Deacon923]

I agree with your statement, but not with the article. Lots of justifying in the article. Granted that no one in the movement was hoping for someone to kill cops, you cannot inflame racial tension to a boiling point and then claim "not my fault" when someone on the fringe blows away two cops. This man was not upset at the over militarization of the police. He felt that people of his race were at war with police. Those that pushed the rhetoric cannot just absolve themselves.

Well, you pretty much just proved the point of the article. Carry on.