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Hang it! (Alondes Williams ACC POY, 1st Team All-ACC)

I’ve read this thread and it’s come down to old school vs new school thoughts which is fine. IMO Wake needs to consider branding when determining who is in the rafters…Duke and UNC already have the brand. When we’re on TV we need people to see Duncan and CP3 up there, they are IMO 2 of the top 50 players in NBA history which helps the Wake brand.

So you know where I stand let’s wait a few years on Alondes, see how is career goes and how he views WF. I love Skip Brown but as to being in the rafters Frank Johnson is at least his equal and Billy Packer was the PG on two final four teams and two ACC championship teams, his omission takes credibility from the entire process.

I know DR very well, yes he comes at things from a different way and loves a spirited debate. What I can also tell you is that his love and support of Wake is without question. DR is a Deac through and through and no matter if you like him or his POV if you know him you know he’s a Deac
 
ChrisL68 said:
the stuff you think is important is irrelevant.

You might disagree with how we decide to retire jerseys and I actually agree with you, but it has 0.0000000000% to do with the success of our basketball program.
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He just wants to WIN!!! And the only way to do that is to have fewer banners honoring our past players in the RAFTERS!
 
This thread is about Manman, but his Wake career is not yet over so I’ll wait to weigh in on that.

But In light of some career best trolling by our little friend, I think it’s important to set the record straight regarding Josh Howard.

-he was at Wake for 4 years primarily due to injuries, not because he was less than a spectacular player.

-he not only won POY in 2003, he was the first unanimous selection since David Thompson.

-he was selected National POY by at least 3 publications that I can recall.

For what it’s worth, I see parallels between how Skip was able to take JHo to incredible new levels/POY and how Forbes has taken ManMan from a P5 reserve to leading candidate for ACC POY.
 
I, for one, see DR's posts for what they really are. A MASSIVE Pilch job on the whole team and program, ultimately leading us to strap up and get that Natty.

Wake Basketball is a big Ol' nothing burger.

IN!
 
When Wake folks can't win the debate, they just start telling Duke and its alums to fuck off.

It's how we got in this position. We need to start copying all the good things at duke, unc, villanova, gonzaga. We need to be having substantive discussions about what those things are and why they work.

Instead, we just get really mad and tell people to fuck off. Losing sucks. Being less than relevant sucks. The answer is to make changes not get so flustered and furious that we just become like 22 and start saying "K chokes and Fuck you."
 
Williams has been a significant change-maker for our program. Deserves love, respect, and accolades.

I’d favor waiting a little before deciding to hang his jersey.
 
22 -- Let me ask you, since you say we shouldn't even discuss whether Skip Brown's jersey should be retired, how come none of you people raised the issue AT ALL in the 40 years after he graduated before they retired his number?

Skip was a great player, as was Bob Leonard, who unlike Skip Brown actually averaged more than 20 points a game. Jack Murdock called Leonard "the best guard ever at Wake Forest."

So why did they retire Brown's #15 40 years later instead of Leonards?

We all knew the answer at the time and some of us who believed basketball mattered went nuts. Brown had worked in the athletic department and was a local bank President. A successful and likable guy. Leonard was nowhere to be found.

Of course, I'm not advocating retiring Leonard's number as well. All-Acc guy. 22 points a game. Actually led us to several ACC Championship games. Something Brown never even did. Leonard, like Brown, is a worthy member of our HOF. Retiring either #15 is not something that we needed done. It lowered the bar once again when we retired Brown. To add insult, it was clearly done for nonbasketball reasons. For 40 years, not one of you had said a darn thing about it not being retired--because that was the right decision.
 
donaldross said:
22 -- Let me ask you, since you say we shouldn't even discuss whether Skip Brown's jersey should be retired,
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Wait. You're salty because he said if you didn't see him in person you can't have an opinion but you dismiss everyone's opinion that has not visited enough bball arenas to suit you. Ok
 
deaconson said:
Wait. You're salty because he said if you didn't see him in person you can't have an opinion but you dismiss everyone's opinion that has not visited enough bball arenas to suit you. Ok
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100%. Arenas are living breathing experiences that you can’t see on TV. The fans matter. The setup matters.

I’ve watched Skip Brown play on TV just like all you folks. I also watched Alondes, J Ho, CP3, Gray, Songaila, Collins play in person more than any of you. All great players. Seeing them play in person versus on TV does nothing to change the analysis. Their numbers shouldn’t be retired at Wake Forest. None had college careers anywhere near matching the pantheon of college careers at WFU: Hemric, Chappell, Davis, Childress, Duncan.

When you give out FOREVER retiring jerseys, it lowers the bar from those who actually achieved. Throw those banners Willy Nilly up there like they do at the Smith Center. But don’t retire numbers unless they are undebatable. Look at those names up in the Smith Center honored BUT NOT RETIRED: Sam Perkins, Charlie Scott, Larry Brown, McAdoo, Stackhouse, Rasheed, Vince.

The “story of UNC basketball can’t be told without them”.

McAdoo won the NBA MVP (unlike Paul), first team all-American (unlike Alondes), went to the Final Four (unlike Paul) but was a JUCO transfer (like Alondes)

Charlie Scott forged major social change, led the heels to 2 final fours, won Olympic gold and won the NBA finals.

Neither has their jersey retired.

None of the jerseys are RETIRED
 
Can we actually lay out the objective criteria that are being proposed for retirement?

All of the following must be true:

1) must have been recruited from HS to the school?
2) must receive degree from school
3) must play at least 3? 4? years?
4) must be a 1st team AA?
5) must be ACC POY
6) must win at least 1 ACC Championship
7) must make at least 1 Final Four

Is this accurate?
 
Just to reiterate what others have said: Alondes Williams is *not* a "juco transfer" at Wake. He's an Oklahoma graduate and will leave Wake Forest with a second degree.

(Or a third if he picked up an associate degree at Triton)
 
donaldross said:
When you give out FOREVER retiring jerseys, it lowers the bar from those who actually achieved. Throw those banners Willy Nilly up there like they do at the Smith Center. But don’t retire numbers unless they are undebatable. Look at those names up in the Smith Center honored BUT NOT RETIRED: Sam Perkins, Charlie Scott, Larry Brown, McAdoo, Stackhouse, Rasheed, Vince.

The “story of UNC basketball can’t be told without them”.
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This agree with.

I am all for more banners in the Joel (or next iteration of our arena) for marketing reasons. I think we should have a banner honoring all of our ACC player of the years, first team all ACC, one with all of our deacs in the NBA.

But before ever retiring a number, you have to do something very special. I’ll disagree with DR that I think Howard and Paul are worthy, but the bar should be very high.

We definitely do need to do more to honor achievements of individuals and the program to build the story Wake basketball, but retiring a number should be very very rare.
 
donaldross said:
22 -- Let me ask you, since you say we shouldn't even discuss whether Skip Brown's jersey should be retired, how come none of you people raised the issue AT ALL in the 40 years after he graduated before they retired his number?

Skip was a great player, as was Bob Leonard, who unlike Skip Brown actually averaged more than 20 points a game. Jack Murdock called Leonard "the best guard ever at Wake Forest."

So why did they retire Brown's #15 40 years later instead of Leonards?

We all knew the answer at the time and some of us who believed basketball mattered went nuts. Brown had worked in the athletic department and was a local bank President. A successful and likable guy. Leonard was nowhere to be found.

Of course, I'm not advocating retiring Leonard's number as well. All-Acc guy. 22 points a game. Actually led us to several ACC Championship games. Something Brown never even did. Leonard, like Brown, is a worthy member of our HOF. Retiring either #15 is not something that we needed done. It lowered the bar once again when we retired Brown. To add insult, it was clearly done for nonbasketball reasons. For 40 years, not one of you had said a darn thing about it not being retired--because that was the right decision.
Click to expand...

Leonard is also … in prison.
 
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