Has Bz turned CJ into a NBA prospect?!

[slothrop]

Daniel Gibson is much quicker than CJ and had longer range. I love CJ but he wont be making an NBA roster.

he's not that quick.

 

[RJKarl]

if daniel gibson can get minutes in the nba as a 6'2 2-guard with a fairly limited skillset aside from his range, it's not entirely inconceivable that cj could carve out a spot on a roster as a combo guard somewhere. otherwise, he'll tear it up in europe.

The same argument was made about Taron and he was a legit PG.

 

[TUA01576]

These threads pop up every year and people whom barely pay attention to the NBA always weigh in on our players saying how they can land on a roster. RJ is right, CJ is not a true point guard, doesn't have the speed of NBA pg's or 2 guards, and isn't a distributor. Ask some of our resident big time NBA fans on the NBA thread if they think CJ will latch on to an NBA roster and they will say the same thing.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

These threads pop up every year and people whom barely pay attention to the NBA always weigh in on our players saying how they can land on a roster. RJ is right, CJ is not a true point guard, doesn't have the speed of NBA pg's or 2 guards, and isn't a distributor. Ask some of our resident big time NBA fans on the NBA thread if they think CJ will latch on to an NBA roster and they will say the same thing.

When you get down an NBA bench you find players with specific skills that a coach was looking for, and mostly what they have in common is a strong work ethic and motor. Nobody is saying CJ's going to get drafted, or ever be a starter, we're saying he could certainly get a cup of coffee in the NBA.

 

[Strickland33]

The NBA has a revolving door for undrafted spot up knock down shooters. CJ is certainly capable of finding his way onto a roster.

This is definitely true. 100% and people need to remember that it's context-dependent, as well.

One thing that gives me pause about CJ:

1) He's a tweener.

He's not really a spot-up shooter (he's taken more shots off of the dribble than via catch-and-shoot), therefore presenting a bit of a paradox.

Obviously, CJ hasn't proven himself to be much in the way of a point guard or a stable distributor and he doesn't have the defensive chops to guard NBA point guards or shooting guards (though, he'll work his tail off in whatever capacity teams try to use him).

So, he's a tweener, but in the worst sense for the NBA: he's neither a point guard nor a shooting guard, while being arguably undersized for both positions. Perhaps he shows something in workouts, but JGray was a very similar case and did not really ever get a chance to crack a roster despite playing very well in front of scouts in pre-draft settings.

I'm just not sure CJ has the skills or the size to fit into an NBA roster at the moment. Of course, like I said, context matters and teams fall in love with guys who are hardworking and who have great character. He is also an ace scoring out of the pick-and-roll, which was one of the things that scouts dug about average-athletic tweeners like Daniel Gibson and Acie Law (in addition to their jump shooting), so you never know. Teams may think that they can turn him into a respectable third string combo-guard.

These are precisely the reasons why he'll be a star in Europe. Teams covet American guards who can handle and who can make shots as primary creators in a less athletic league. Take a look at Justin Gray's overseas career so far. In five seasons, he's played for a top-tier domestic team (PAOK) and for second-tiers domestic leagues (Poiters in France and Turow in Poland). He's fared pretty well in the scheme of things.

Gray's comparisons on DX at the time were Eddie House (a few good seasons, but a fringe rotation player for much of his career) and Will Solomon (a European star who cracked the NBA late and was a fringe rotation player at that point).

I see CJ's ceiling as somewhere closer to Solomon's, ultimately. A more realistic comparison might be a player like former TAMU star and lotto pick Acie Law, who has played a key role for two top-European teams (Olympiacos and Partizan).

 

[OldGoldandGrobe]

Bz has coached CJ for three years. CJ's improvement cannot be denied. You have to give Bz credit.

As for CJ's pro future. There is nothing wrong with making six figures a year while living in Europe.

For aspiring Eurobasket superstars, Wake could be a destination program.

 

[Strickland33]

Bz has coached CJ for three years. CJ's improvement cannot be denied. You have to give Bz credit.

Do you? I'm serious. CJ came into Wake with an outstanding work ethic. His improvement between years two and three could just as easily be attributed to more possessions and maturation than it can to Buzz. I've talked to people in the program, too, that have pointed to CJ's work ethic before Buzz's mentoring in regards to his improvement. Chill and Battle, it seems, are responsible for a majority of his coaching-related improvement.

If you've got information, then I'm willing to listen and concede, but everything I've heard has privileged CJ's improvement on his own and, then, with Chill and Battle, before considering [Redacted]'s influence.

As for CJ's pro future. There is nothing wrong with making six figures a year while living in Europe.

Not in the slightest. European ball is far better for low-tier NCAA prospects, especially American guards, than the NBA. I'm not sure if you read my post, but to clarify: I'm a big fan of European basketball and I think him ending up in an elite or second tier domestic league would be huge for him and for our program.

For aspiring Eurobasket superstars, Wake could be a destination program.

We should be already. In addition to the oft-cited Chill, Eric Williams, Kyle Visser, Justin Gray, and David Weaver have done really well at a high level of competition in Europe. Guys like LD, Jamal, Trent, Taron, etc. have had respectable careers at a far lower level of ball, as well.

I know you're a State fan and I can't tell if you're trolling with this post, but Wake has done very well with placing our guys internationally. The guys who are willing to work, really thrive over there.

 

[OldGoldandGrobe]

Not trolling at all. As a State fan, I am plenty familiar with our better recent players going on to play in overseas pro leagues. I follow their careers and I see no shame in a career played overseas at all. Not even Rodney Monroe got a fair shake in the NBA.

More NCAA players should be realistic about their pro prospects. If you fill a college team with future Eurobasket quality players, the program will go far.

Why go to the NBDL for a teacher's salary, when you can make six figures (or more) playing overseas?

 

[TBR]

Yes, sir. I wonder if those who attribute a player like CJ's improvements to the head coach really doesn't understand how college basketball works.

For those who advocate this position: do you know when and how often Jeff [Redacted] actually get to work with CJ?

Not to mention Ish Smith, whose improvement was similar to CJ's yet buzz in types are sure to credit to his work ethic and not to Dino.

 

[Strickland33]

Not trolling at all. As a State fan, I am plenty familiar with our better recent players going on to play in overseas pro leagues. I follow their careers and I see no shame in a career played overseas at all. Not even Rodney Monroe got a fair shake in the NBA.

More NCAA players program should be realistic about their pro prospects. If you fill a college team with future Eurobasket quality players, the program will go far.

Why go to the NBDL for a teacher's salary, when you can make six figures (or more) playing overseas?

The bold is definitely the newer culture among four-year NCAA players. There's simply no denying that it's a legitimate living and a really high quality way of life for a lot of these guys who would get paid pennies on the dollar in the NBA or in the developmental league.

Furthermore, being good in Europe is a really important stepping stone to making an NBA roster down the line, arguably better than the traditionally touted D-League route. One type of player really comes to mind as benefitting from developing in Europe: the tweener guard, guys like Will Bynum, Willie Solomon, and Bo McCaleb. These guys have the opportunity to lead teams as undersized combo guards and, after proven success at a high level, get their shot at a veteran's minimum or mid-level NBA contract.

Even among more highly touted types that the Wellmans and Bzdeliks of the world hate (i.e. Patrick Beverly, Kyle Singler, and Brandon Jennings all come to mind) are really seeing the benefits of playing well overseas for their NBA careers. Beverly, in particularly, is about to blow up on an NBA roster.

 

[advancedeac]

I think strength is more important in the nba than quickness. CJ has a chance because he has made himself very strong and because he is very crafty offensively. He has adequate quicks and speed and he knows how to get his shot. He will get a NBA chance, but there certainly will be a place for him in Europe.

 

[Strickland33]

This is what Draft Express said about Justin Gray in a pre-draft workout:

Private Workout: Rudy Gay, Steve Novak, [Justin] Gray, [Alex] Loughton
May 23, 2006

DraftExpress attended an insightful workout this past weekend in Suburban Washington DC featuring Rudy Gay, Steve Novak, Justin Gray and Alex Loughton. The hour and a half workout was conducted by trainer Idan Ravin and was one of the most intense and telling ones we’ve seen in the past three years. The fact that the agents whose clients are participating, Lance Young of Octagon for Gay, Gray, Loughton, and Doug Neustadt for Novak, felt they had nothing to hide in is fairly rare, especially this late, and says something about the confidence them and their trainer have in their clients.

The trainer, Idan Ravin, has slowly been establishing himself as one of the best teachers in the country through his coaching each year with a select clientele base that he works with year-round. We’ve been meaning to get out to DC to watch him in action for quite some time now. He’s the lone trainer who can claim to have trained three of the past five draft prospects who ended up winning Rookie of the Year honors after working with him; Chris Paul, Steve Francis and Elton Brand. Other players he’s helped prepare for the draft or trained before or during the NBA season include Carmelo Anthony, Gilbert Arenas, Mike James, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels and many others. His reputation appears to be well deserved, as the emphasis on and personal instruction through stern and encouraging motivational techniques was evident throughout the workout.

The session started the way most NBA workouts do, with warm-ups and a series of full-court ball-handling drills. The players worked on the type of basic skills they’ll be tested on in the next few weeks, in and outs, crossovers, between the legs, behind the back, spins and other standard ball-handling moves. Mid-range pull-ups, step-backs, and finishing around the basket in a variety of ways was mixed in with a series of other skill oriented drills. 3-point shooting was practiced both from stand-still and off the dribble, and one on one half-court and full-court matchups brought out the competitive side of the prospects in attendance and taught us all we wanted to know about their individual skills.

...

Relative to expectations, Justin Gray might have been the biggest surprise of the four players we saw here. Last time we met up with him, he was struggling through a pretty lackluster showing at the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament. What we learned here is that he is most certainly a much better prospect in these types of private individual settings where his offensive versatility is really on display. If this workout was any indication, it wouldn’t be a surprise at all to see him shock some teams with how good he looks in the next few weeks, and possibly in the pre-draft camp if he is invited.

Of the four players, Gray was easily the best ball-handler in the drills. He looked smooth and confident at all times, executing the drills to perfection quickly and very much under control. His shot looked terrific both in the drive and kick drills as well as when asked to pull up off the dribble running up and down the floor in the full-court. His footwork is especially impressive, and his instincts as a scorer were always evident.

I'm not sure he's as good of a spot-up shooter as Gray or whether he has the same command of the basketball (CJ is really turnover prone), but Givony admits that Gray didn't look this good during his senior season, either.

In the one on one matchups, Gray was very dominant at times. His 3-pointer was falling for him and he was taking the much bigger players off the dribble at will. He took a number of tough contested shots with long arms in his face, but this didn’t seem to bother him even one bit, even though he was a bit streaky at times. When getting to the basket, he finished nicely on more than one occasion with a swooping one-handed lefty floater in the lane that looked highly polished. He scored in almost every way possible in this workout, whether from well beyond the 3-point arc, pulling up from mid-range and in the paint.

This sounds a lot like CJ.

Defensively it wasn’t easy to evaluate him since every player here was at least 7 inches taller than him, and they are of course not the type of players he’ll be asked to guard. Shades of his typical lack of defensive awareness did come out at times as we saw this past season at Wake Forest. His shot-selection was at times a bit questionable as well.

This also sounds like CJ.

After having watched him play extensively over his senior year and realizing how little point guard he has in him, it was nice to again see what made him such a highly touted player to begin with. Someone could certainly take a flyer on him late in the 2nd round as an Eddie House type scorer to bring off the bench, or he could find himself making six figures every year as an absolute killer of a shooting guard in Europe. Either way, he’ll be playing basketball somewhere for a very long time to come.

I think Givony has adequately described what makes CJ such an interesting prospect for Europe and a fringe NBA prospect, at this point in his career. What makes CJ so desirable, however, is just how good he has become relative to his recruiting ranking.

The above write-up really exemplifies the types of qualities that scouts will look for out of players like CJ and serves as a solid checklist of skills he should work on as our season winds to a close.

 

[CHillDeac]

Bz has coached CJ for three years. CJ's improvement cannot be denied. You have to give Bz credit.

As for CJ's pro future. There is nothing wrong with making six figures a year while living in Europe.

Aren't most European League salaries tax free? And don't American players usually, on top of their salaries, have their living expenses paid for them?

 

[TBR]

Aren't most European League salaries tax free? And don't American players usually, on top of their salaries, have their living expenses paid for them?

I think their salaries are usually set as net of tax, but they do have to pay taxes. I would also think that they have to pay at least some taxes to the USA, but I could be wrong on that.