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Immigrants and Medicare

Not opposed to immigration at all. It's a good thing and usually a plus for the economy. I would like it to be legal though. I hope that is not too much to ask.

On the rotting crops, maybe somebody could ask those in the neighborhood on welfare or long term unemployed or food stamps to help out with the harvest. It's always easier to get a job if you are doing some work, then if you are not.

You miss a couple of realities. The first is there are over 12,000,000 undocumented people in the US. This must be fixed first. A huge percentage of them have been here for decades. They are de facto Americans and have helped our nation greatly. A big number of those have American kids.

We can talk all we want what would happen in a perfect world, but we don't live in one.

Before we talk about anything else, their status needs to be defined and fixed.

The reality is "securing the border" is crap. We've more than doubled the number of agents along the border since 2009. We've given them drones and other high tech security equipment. This isn't the problem.
 
New Zealand denies fat people immigration status because it taxes their health care. Wise move, if you ask me, and one that we are going to have to seriously consider (but of course won't) when we inevitably morph into a single payer system.

Interesting. I did not know that, but I support that stance.
 
resentment of the poor is so easy when you sit in an ivory tower

Well I'm hardly in an ivory tower, nor do I resent the poor. This "tired, poor, huddled masses" stuff is for the birds, however. It is a snapshot of a period in America's history and should not be used to govern our current immigration policy. Give us your skilled workers and educated because we have plenty of the tired, poor, and huddled masses and will continue to get them through diversity visas and refugees. We should greatly cut the number of family based visas we issue in a year.
 
You miss a couple of realities. The first is there are over 12,000,000 undocumented people in the US. This must be fixed first. A huge percentage of them have been here for decades. They are de facto Americans and have helped our nation greatly. A big number of those have American kids.

We can talk all we want what would happen in a perfect world, but we don't live in one.

Before we talk about anything else, their status needs to be defined and fixed.

The reality is "securing the border" is crap. We've more than doubled the number of agents along the border since 2009. We've given them drones and other high tech security equipment. This isn't the problem.

Such utter nonsense, RJ. While I have no clue what "securing the border" entails apart from throwing more money at a problem that isn't particularly fixable unless we throw landmines on the border, I am positive that the solution isn't to keep throwing out an amnesty every 10-15 years. Reagan had one. Clinton had one. Bush wanted one. Obama wants one. Throwing these out there every time we reach critical mass in our illegal alien quota is part of the reason why we reach critical mass in our illegal alien quota. I don't mind opening up the nonimmigrant (not the green card visas, which are immigrant visas) so that we can bring in more seasonal and agricultural workers on a temporary and as needed basis, but the current immigrant visa structure needs to stay in place with a few modest tweaks. This amnesty bullshit isn't about being humane or enforcement like the politicians say. If Mexicans voted for Republicans, the Democrats would be harping on about how enforcement needs to be first and Republicans would suddenly be humanitarians.
 
You and your far right buddies need dictionaries. Whereas Reagan did have a full amnesty, the W/Kennedy/McCain/Obama/Gang of 8 program is not an amnesty. There are conditions, requirements, fees and more.

I understand using that word upsets people, but you should be more honest about this.
 
1. A nation needs to be able to control its borders. Until we do, we will have an illegal immigrant problem.

2. Drastically increase the punishments for those who employ undocumented workers.

3. Make welfare and food stamps dependent on work.
 
You and your far right buddies need dictionaries. Whereas Reagan did have a full amnesty, the W/Kennedy/McCain/Obama/Gang of 8 program is not an amnesty. There are conditions, requirements, fees and more.

I understand using that word upsets people, but you should be more honest about this.

Reagan had an amnesty-- a "one time amnesty". It was a disaster. It was rife with fraud, just as this one will be. Clinton also had an amnesty that nobody talks about. It required a job offer, but was still an amnesty. What is being discussed in great detail but not revealed in any great detail are the parts of the plan that are different from past amnesties. That doesn't mean it isn't an amnesty. That means that parts are different. Do you think that the previous amnesties lacked conditions, requirements, and fees? There are parts of it that I've heard about that sound right on target, and parts that sound like the same ol' shit. The fine print is always in the waivers, and I have a feeling that they will effectively gut any enforcement that this bill aims to do. Nobody is talking about the waivers.
 
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1. A nation needs to be able to control its borders. Until we do, we will have an illegal immigrant problem.

2. Drastically increase the punishments for those who employ undocumented workers.

3. Make welfare and food stamps dependent on work.

Undocumented workers don't food stamps or welfare. No matter what people tell, it just isn't so.

What happens if you live in a place where you can't get a job? Should your kids starve?
 
As someone who has read this bill and worked on this bill feel free to ask me some questions. There are a ton of misconceptions about this bill out there as witnessed on this thread.

I'll address a few quick ones that I have noticed in this thread. In regards to the "amnesty" the bill sets in place a ten-year path to citizenship that includes the illegal immigrants paying fines, back taxes, learning English and civics, and not being eligible for any gov't money (i.e. healthcare). These undocumented workers DO NOT jump the line, they are put at the back of the line behind all of the immigrants that have applied and are waiting lawfully to earn green cards and citizenship.

The a large percentage of the 12 million undocumented workers are not here after illegally crossing the border, but rather are visa overstays.

"Job thieves" is an outrageous claim that is only echoed by Jeff Sessions and a select few, farmers and low-skilled job providers throughout the country have attempted to offer jobs to american's and simply can't find any willing to do this work. Say what you want to say about what that shows about citizens and government handouts, etc...but the reality is these low-skilled immigrants are NOT taking jobs that uneducated citizens are trying to get, that is just reality. This bill provides a seasonal visa program, the problem with just seasonal is though that some industries (see dairy) need year around low skilled workers. A huge part of this bill is devoted and shaped around the AG industries desperate need for low-skilled labor, while also protecting the rights of the workers.

This bill also gets rid of diversity visas and country caps. As to the argument that we should only pick and choose the high-skilled immigrants, we NEED the low skilled immigrants for this country to run. On top to that, the low-skilled workers kids many times grow into huge contributors and entrepreneurs (see the majority of ceo's in silicon valley).

As to employment verification, this bill drastically increases the fines for employers who employ undocumented workers and phases in a e-verification that all businesses must use to verify that the worker they are hiring is here legally. I think the vast majority of people agree this is a good thing, as no one wants businesses undercutting wages and conditions while employing illegal workers.

Border Security - this bill increases spending on border security a ton. Border crossings are already at a 40 year low, and the bill offers even more funding for hot spots along the southwest border to deter, capture, and process all illegal border crossings. The bill also implements a entry/exit system to better control visa overstays. It also puts money towards tougher central enforcement.

In maybe the most basic way, as Gover Norquist argues, we simply need these people. We need more workers, low-skilled and high-skilled, and we need their tax dollars. We also need a faster and easier way to process the people who so desperately want to be in this country, while also making it faster and easier to stop people trying to get into this country or stay in this country for insidious reasons.
 
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This needs to be highlighted:

"Border Security - this bill increases spending on border security a ton. Border crossings are already at a 40 year low"
 
Undocumented workers don't food stamps or welfare. No matter what people tell, it just isn't so.

What happens if you live in a place where you can't get a job? Should your kids starve?

Who said that undocumented aliens get food stamps and welfare? You still have your touch with straw men. Congrats.

If you can't get a job in your area, you go to the local unemployment/employmernt office, and they will assign you one: cleaning public areas that need cleaning, clearing off graffiti, providing temporary help harvesting crops, and the like. Lots of things need to be done, let the welfare and food stamp recipients get busy doing them. It's much better for self-esteem than sitting at home and waiting for a hand-out. And your children will also learn that work is better than idleness. Maybe they could replace illegal alliens in jobs, and those who hire illegal alliens could have their punishments reduced, if they hire people from welfare and food stamps instead.
 
As someone who has read this bill and worked on this bill feel free to ask me some questions. There are a ton of misconceptions about this bill out there as witnessed on this thread.

I'll address a few quick ones that I have noticed in this thread. In regards to the "amnesty" the bill sets in place a ten-year path to citizenship that includes the illegal immigrants paying fines, back taxes, learning English and civics, and not being eligible for any gov't money (i.e. healthcare). These undocumented workers DO NOT jump the line, they are put at the back of the line behind all of the immigrants that have applied and are waiting lawfully to earn green cards and citizenship.

The a large percentage of the 12 million undocumented workers are not here after illegally crossing the border, but rather are visa overstays.

"Job thieves" is an outrageous claim that is only echoed by Jeff Sessions and a select few, farmers and low-skilled job providers throughout the country have attempted to offer jobs to american's and simply can't find any willing to do this work. Say what you want to say about what that shows about citizens and government handouts, etc...but the reality is these low-skilled immigrants are NOT taking jobs that uneducated citizens are trying to get, that is just reality. This bill provides a seasonal visa program, the problem with just seasonal is though that some industries (see dairy) need year around low skilled workers. A huge part of this bill is devoted and shaped around the AG industries desperate need for low-skilled labor, while also protecting the rights of the workers.

This bill also gets rid of diversity visas and country caps. As to the argument that we should only pick and choose the high-skilled immigrants, we NEED the low skilled immigrants for this country to run. On top to that, the low-skilled workers kids many times grow into huge contributors and entrepreneurs (see the majority of ceo's in silicon valley).

As to employment verification, this bill drastically increases the fines for employers who employ undocumented workers and phases in a e-verification that all businesses must use to verify that the worker they are hiring is here legally. I think the vast majority of people agree this is a good thing, as no one wants businesses undercutting wages and conditions while employing illegal workers.

Border Security - this bill increases spending on border security a ton. Border crossings are already at a 40 year low, and the bill offers even more funding for hot spots along the southwest border to deter, capture, and process all illegal border crossings. The bill also implements a entry/exit system to better control visa overstays. It also puts money towards tougher central enforcement.

In maybe the most basic way, as Gover Norquist argues, we simply need these people. We need more workers, low-skilled and high-skilled, and we need their tax dollars. We also need a faster and easier way to process the people who so desperately want to be in this country, while also making it faster and easier to stop people trying to get into this country or stay in this country for insidious reasons.


Well, if they wont take jobs that are available, then they should not get food stamps or welfare.
 
Well, if they wont take jobs that are available, then they should not get food stamps or welfare.

Just because a job is "available" doesn't mean they qualify for it or will be offered it.
 
so why is it that illegal immigrants will take the jobs and Americans won't? are they better people?
 
Theoretically there are 40M+ on food stamps. That's about 1 in 8. Let's say that numbers is off by 350% here in Orange County and only 100,000 people out of the 3,000,000+ that live here are on Food Stamps.

Let's be even more ridiculous and say those 100,000 are in average family groups of five. That means that 20,000 people would need to get graffitti cleaning, road cleaning and other public service jobs.

Let's not even think about the cost to oversee the program and then the people to be hired to supervise the beneficiaries at the sites of their work.

Do you actually think there would be work for 20,000 people in this county?

P.S. Assuming each supervisor could monitor 50 people and would only make $4000/month including benefits, taxes, etc. This would cost our county $1,600,000/month without any of the ancillary costs.

Like most thoughts along these lines, they end up costing well more than just paying for the benefits.
 
Because they take the shit jobs that people think are beneath them. Nobody wants to pick beans in a field all day. That's so 1930. Nobody wants to lay tar on a roof in the middle of the summer when it's 105 degrees outside (and about 150 with the tar).
 
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