• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Immigrants and Medicare

I get the feeling sailordeac hates food stamps and welfare

As temporary emergency measures, I have no problem with them. Long-term dependency I have problems with, and so should everyone else who wants to help the poor escape their poverty. Simply feeding their dependency has not worked, does not work, and will not work. It can't work, and supporting it only ,makes the problem worse.
 
Immigration status does not affect eligibility for workers' compensation, at least in my state.

Many illegals take a hard, physical job, allege an injury and attempt to get on weekly benefits that way. Happens pretty frequently, actually.
 
As temporary emergency measures, I have no problem with them. Long-term dependency I have problems with, and so should everyone else who wants to help the poor escape their poverty. Simply feeding their dependency has not worked, does not work, and will not work. It can't work, and supporting it only ,makes the problem worse.

what percentage of them are long-term and what percentage are temporary?

how long is long-term?

what percentage are children who cannot work?

(thanks in advance)
 
As someone who has read this bill and worked on this bill feel free to ask me some questions. There are a ton of misconceptions about this bill out there as witnessed on this thread.

Nobody has seen the damn bill. That's the main problem.

I'll address a few quick ones that I have noticed in this thread. In regards to the "amnesty" the bill sets in place a ten-year path to citizenship that includes the illegal immigrants paying fines, back taxes, learning English and civics, and not being eligible for any gov't money (i.e. healthcare). These undocumented workers DO NOT jump the line, they are put at the back of the line behind all of the immigrants that have applied and are waiting lawfully to earn green cards and citizenship.

That is my understanding, but I'll believe it when all the waivers are known to the public. The devil is always in the details. Basically, the spin is they still end up serving the 10 year bar, but they can do it in country. They get a clean slate. Oddly enough, this is something I had been advocating for years as "an amnesty that isn't really an amnesty." Even wrote a big long letter to Kay Bailey about it and got a token form letter in response.

The a large percentage of the 12 million undocumented workers are not here after illegally crossing the border, but rather are visa overstays.

Some are. I don't think I'd call it a large percentage. Like the previous amnesties, the overwhelming majority of applicants are going to be Mexicans and other Latinos who are EWIs (entered without inspection), not student overstays from England.

"Job thieves" is an outrageous claim that is only echoed by Jeff Sessions and a select few, farmers and low-skilled job providers throughout the country have attempted to offer jobs to american's and simply can't find any willing to do this work. Say what you want to say about what that shows about citizens and government handouts, etc...but the reality is these low-skilled immigrants are NOT taking jobs that uneducated citizens are trying to get, that is just reality. This bill provides a seasonal visa program, the problem with just seasonal is though that some industries (see dairy) need year around low skilled workers. A huge part of this bill is devoted and shaped around the AG industries desperate need for low-skilled labor, while also protecting the rights of the workers.

Agreed on the "job thieves" and that the H2 seasonal work visas need an overhaul and a cap lift. Again, that is something that I have long been advocating.

This bill also gets rid of diversity visas and country caps. As to the argument that we should only pick and choose the high-skilled immigrants, we NEED the low skilled immigrants for this country to run. On top to that, the low-skilled workers kids many times grow into huge contributors and entrepreneurs (see the majority of ceo's in silicon valley).

When the low skilled workers become US citizens-- hell, when they become immigrants (immigrants meaning green card holders, as opposed to nonimmigrants, who are here on temporary employment visas like H2A seasonal workers)-- they won't be doing that low skilled labor anymore. Shit, they'll probably hop off that train once they get on this latest amnesty path and are guaranteed long-term security. That's just the way it is. The people who will will be the illegals and we'll be having this debate again in 10 years. And somehow, I don't think the majority of CEO's in Silicon Valley would be considered low skilled workers, either now or when they were founding their companies.

As to employment verification, this bill drastically increases the fines for employers who employ undocumented workers and phases in a e-verification that all businesses must use to verify that the worker they are hiring is here legally. I think the vast majority of people agree this is a good thing, as no one wants businesses undercutting wages and conditions while employing illegal workers.

Good. Won't do much good, but you can't ask for much more.

Border Security - this bill increases spending on border security a ton. Border crossings are already at a 40 year low, and the bill offers even more funding for hot spots along the southwest border to deter, capture, and process all illegal border crossings. The bill also implements a entry/exit system to better control visa overstays. It also puts money towards tougher central enforcement.

If they're at a 40 year low, it's because the economy blows and they all rushed up here when the amnesty talk first started. Given this administration's lack of enforcement priorities along the border, I'm reluctant to believe anything they say on border security. They're already fudging the numbers on how they've deported more people than anybody else by changing the way such removals are counted.

In maybe the most basic way, as Gover Norquist argues, we simply need these people. We need more workers, low-skilled and high-skilled, and we need their tax dollars. We also need a faster and easier way to process the people who so desperately want to be in this country, while also making it faster and easier to stop people trying to get into this country or stay in this country for insidious reasons.

We need their tax dollars to feed the monster that keeps eating. We can't continue to allow tax money to be an excuse for a negligent immigration policy. As for whether we need them or not, that always depends on the economic situation. I remember when we raised the H1B cap in the 90s when the dotcom economy was hustling and bustling along unrestrained. When the economy started to slow in 2000 but especially after 9/11 and WorldCom and Enron, we didn't need all that excess.

...
 
Last edited:
what percentage of them are long-term and what percentage are temporary?

how long is long-term?

what percentage are children who cannot work?

(thanks in advance)

1. don't know

2. set a time limit - and we'll find the answer to 1

3. don't know (I don't know what to say about a person who wont work to support their own children) (If their parents wont work to support them, the children should be assigned to relatives who will, or to another family that will value them. No sense in teaching children the values of not working. Jim was a better father to Huck Finn than his natural father was.)
 
1. don't know

2. set a time limit - and we'll find the answer to 1

3. don't know (I don't know what to say about a person who wont work to support their own children) (If their parents wont work to support them, the children should be assigned to relatives who will, or to another family that will value them. No sense in teaching children the values of not working. Jim was a better father to Huck Finn than his natural father was.)

So you are just kinda complaining and forming opinions about what you imagine to be the problem. ok

On #3 - I have no idea what this means. Children cannot work, they are dependent on adults. If their parents/guardians cannot support them on the meager wages they earn cleaning shit or whatever, they still need to eat.
 
Last edited:
ELC,

1. The bill is out there, yes it is long, yes it is dense, but it is easily accessible. Do i expect most or even a small percentage of people to read it, no, but you can always check out the sections that concern you the most.

2. Would you call 40% a large percentage because that is the percentage of the estimated undocumented workers who are here on a visa overstay. I think most people would be astounded by that percentage and call it very large.

3. I suppose the scenario of all of the new immigrants abandoning their low-skilled jobs could play out, regardless you hope their kids are skilled enough not to do those jobs anyway. The bill sets up an infrastructure within DHS that will hopefully allow immigrants to come into the country, whether seasonally or permanently, much easier in the future when we again have a demand for such low-skilled jobs. The problem is not people coming in to do these jobs, the problem is the broken system we have in place right now that has made it so hard to become a citizen, get a visa, or work seasonally that created such a huge demand for illegal workers in these low-skilled positions. The hope is the bill helps to fix these issues with a quicker entry system and employment verification.

edited to say - Your other points about DHS #'s and taxes are more opinion policy points that you are entitled to have. Although I disagree with the DHS #'s under the Bush and Obama administrations DHS and border patrol has ballooned deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants and putting lots of boots on the ground in problem areas.
 
Last edited:
ELC,

1. The bill is out there, yes it is long, yes it is dense, but it is easily accessible. Do i expect most or even a small percentage of people to read it, no, but you can always check out the sections that concern you the most.

2. Would you call 40% a large percentage because that is the percentage of the estimated undocumented workers who are here on a visa overstay. I think most people would be astounded by that percentage and call it very large.

3. I suppose the scenario of all of the new immigrants abandoning their low-skilled jobs could play out, regardless you hope their kids are skilled enough not to do those jobs anyway. The bill sets up an infrastructure within DHS that will hopefully allow immigrants to come into the country, whether seasonally or permanently, much easier in the future when we again have a demand for such low-skilled jobs. The problem is not people coming in to do these jobs, the problem is the broken system we have in place right now that has made it so hard to become a citizen, get a visa, or work seasonally that created such a huge demand for illegal workers in these low-skilled positions. The hope is the bill helps to fix these issues with a quicker entry system and employment verification.

edited to say - Your other points about DHS #'s and taxes are more opinion policy points that you are entitled to have. Although I disagree with the DHS #'s under the Bush and Obama administrations DHS and border patrol has ballooned deporting record numbers of illegal immigrants and putting lots of boots on the ground in problem areas.

It would appear that a few sections deal with the amnesty and a lot of others modify existing things, such as the H2 programs and investor visas. As it pertains to this thread, the sections regarding amnesty are most relevant. As it pertains to me directly, the entire bill is relevant since I will be tasked with enforcing it.

40% is a large percentage. There is no way that 40% of the amnesty applicants will fall under that category. And frankly, I would think that of that 40%, at least 3/4s of them are visitor overstays who always intended to overstay. To me, there isn't a hill of beans of difference between somebody hopping across the Rio Grande and somebody getting on a plane because they got a visitor visa under false pretenses.

I'm not pulling these opinions out of my ass. I'm basing them on experience. I've worked some of those Reagan amnesty cases and a lot of the Clinton ones. The Clinton ones had more of the overstays that you describe because it was employment based. The Reagan ones did not have many of those. Not sure what you mean about the DHS #s and taxes. What did I say about taxes? With DHS #s are you referencing the deportation numbers? That isn't simply my opinion that those numbers are fudged. It's a fact. They started counting BP apprehensions to pad the numbers and look tough on immigration. Not to mention that they have changed policy to neuter BP agents in a lot of cases. The rank and file is not pleased with immigration enforcement priorities from the current administration. At all.
 
They are the children of immigrants. They are going to be an American educated, powerful political/financial force. They may flip the South blue again.


and it's estimated that by 2050 Hispanics will make up 1/3 of the total US population.
 
and it's estimated that by 2050 Hispanics will make up 1/3 of the total US population.

Actually, since most recent generations of Americans identify with multiple ethnic groups, that's probably not accurate. IIRC, the 2010 Census took some flak for having inaccurate ways of reporting one's ethnicity.

Anyway, I agree with ELC's point that in 10 years time we're going to have this debate all over again because of the cyclical nature of immigration and economic mobility in America. That's if the US economy is not stuck in a recession for the next 10 years.

It's a pity that our Gov't can't better enable poor Americans that are already here to find work and improve their lot in life. I'm talking about those on welfare that have no hopes of elevating themselves because of a lack of education or skills.
 
But your Ryan and your RW buddies want to Pell grants and funding for the Department of Education (actually they want to kill it). RW govs and state legislatures have been cutting teachers and funding for schools.

You talk about trying to help then the people you support make cure it cant' happen.
 
Actually, since most recent generations of Americans identify with multiple ethnic groups, that's probably not accurate. IIRC, the 2010 Census took some flak for having inaccurate ways of reporting one's ethnicity.

Anyway, I agree with ELC's point that in 10 years time we're going to have this debate all over again because of the cyclical nature of immigration and economic mobility in America. That's if the US economy is not stuck in a recession for the next 10 years.

It's a pity that our Gov't can't better enable poor Americans that are already here to find work and improve their lot in life. I'm talking about those on welfare that have no hopes of elevating themselves because of a lack of education or skills.

So that is the government's responsibility? Why can't the private sector do it like they used to? Might cut into profits, eh?
 
Bake, I bet he'd be against a stimulus package like he was the first time.

It's rather predictable and hilarious.
 
Actually, since most recent generations of Americans identify with multiple ethnic groups, that's probably not accurate. IIRC, the 2010 Census took some flak for having inaccurate ways of reporting one's ethnicity.


As of the 2011 census Hispanics already make up close to 17%(52 million) of the US population. By 2050 it's estimated that Hispanics will number close to 140 million, or 1/3 of the population.


http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/cb12-ff19.html
 
Big deal. You threw out the first stat like you thought it should "scare" people. Like Spanish-speakers are invaders or something.

I was simply pointing out (earlier) that more and more Americans identify with multiple ethnic groups and that stat is rather pointless. In case you need an example: someone born to an Irish father and Brazilian mother... they would naturally identify as what? Both Irish and Brazilian... but you argue against that, I suppose... Real life experience tells me otherwise..

I love how RJ tries to put me in box or label my ideological beliefs... lol He doesn't know me in real life. We're all just keyboard jockeys!
 
Last edited:
So that is the government's responsibility? Why can't the private sector do it like they used to? Might cut into profits, eh?

It's the government's responsibility if they're going to grant citizenship. Not to enable, but to Americanize, which has the effect of enabling.
 
"Rubio, a key member of the Gang of Eight, is shopping around a proposal to have Congress — not the Department of Homeland Security — write the border control strategy that would be a prerequisite for most of the other elements of reform. Rubio hasn’t yet landed on specific parameters, but, arguing that Americans don’t trust their government to get it right, Rubio wants lawmakers to craft the plan at the outset, rather than leave the details up to the Obama administration."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/...-faces-security-snag-92125.html#ixzz2VFdWeRna
 
Back
Top