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Israel Attacked and its Response

TWDeac said:
I can't help but recall the outrage from Americans during the war in Iraq and Afghanistan at soldier deaths, civilian casualties, destruction, etc..

I'd hope that those same people would look back in hindsight after what they are seeing in Gaza and realize they only know one thing, American prosperity and fortune.

I'd also hope that those same people would look at the situation in Ukraine, Israel and use that insight to better understand the things they don't. The fact that the US military has served as such a public voice of reason to the Israelis means that they took our 2000s outcry into consideration right?

Hamas is an intractable part of Palestine. Israel, like the US in Iraq/Afghanistan, played a role in creating the conflict situation we see today. As far as I'm concerned, the only way for Palestinian or Russian citizens to be free from oppression is to destroy the oppressors. Have we forgotten what it took to beat Japan and Germany? Or maybe we are just OK with subjugation as long as it doesn't rise to the level where we hear about it in the West?

War and conflict are abstractions and annoyances to Western liberals. It is why propaganda is so successful at targeting us. This is why we have people arguing about news that is likely second-hand half-truth agitprop.

In my mind it is this easy. Swap Palestine for the US, MAGA for Hamas, and Palestinians for Americans and see how the quickly the tune changes about murdering innocent MAGA civilians.
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Wat
 
I don’t recall a lot of outrage about Iraq/Afghanistan until the second Bush term and later. Obama wasn’t even able to garner much popular support for withdrawing.

As far as American prosperity goes, I do think Americans can’t really say they know what it means to live under constant threat of bombs dropping on our heads, something a not insignificant portion of the world unfortunately lives with as a reality.

Insofar as we’re urging anything short of a complete destruction of Palestine, I guess we are a voice of reason, but the billions of dollars and the direct weapons transfers are another thing. Hamas as an intractable part of Palestine is surely a short, political view of what is a long cultural identity. Hamas oppresses Palestine, but not to the extent that Israel does, and if we can’t agree on that, we can’t discuss this in very productive terms.

And I’d argue that agitprop is successful not because war is an abstraction, but that colonial oppressors like Russia and Israel control media and have decades or centuries old, well understood and heavily discussed disinformation playbooks. The press embargo in Gaza makes it very hard to get good information on what’s happening, and combined with fog of war shit plus the social media landscape makes it very difficult to be an informed global citizen. And our leaders have strong political interests in keeping war an abstraction while funneling trillions to the military industrial estate.

I won’t engage with your Hamas as MAGA analogy, it’s pretty offensive. No civilian deserves to be murdered, and if you find yourself drawing lines where the UN, humanitarian efforts, Geneva convention, journalists, and civilian men, women and children have become your bad guys, I’d self reflect.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
it's like a mini "THERE ARE WMD'S!!!"

Except Israel keeps doing it and killing civilians.
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Want to tell me for a second who you think these combatants are with the civilian dead in the back of their technical?
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I thought we already agreed that not only are both sides killing civilians, but are doing so at higher than a 50% clip of total deaths on both sides (as has been the case for the last 2+ decades at a minimum). There is no moral "high ground" re: civilian deaths in this conflict nor has there ever been.
 
See this is the problem. You people know me personally. You know that I am an empathetic bleeding heart. Did you read my post in my voice, with an understanding of who was behind the screen? I guess not.
 
Condescension notwithstanding, I appreciate you taking my personal knowledge about the situation and casting it aside for your own personal take.

Insofar as we’re urging anything short of a complete destruction of Palestine, I guess we are a voice of reason, but the billions of dollars and the direct weapons transfers are another thing. Hamas as an intractable part of Palestine is surely a short, political view of what is a long cultural identity. Hamas oppresses Palestine, but not to the extent that Israel does, and if we can’t agree on that, we can’t discuss this in very productive terms.
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Appreciate your advice to self reflect, friend. I find it interesting that you took my analogy as offensive because I found your entire post personally offensive.
I won’t engage with your Hamas as MAGA analogy, it’s pretty offensive. No civilian deserves to be murdered, and if you find yourself drawing lines where the UN, humanitarian efforts, Geneva convention, journalists, and civilian men, women and children have become your bad guys, I’d self reflect.
Click to expand...
 
TWDeac said:
See this is the problem. You people know me personally. You know that I am an empathetic bleeding heart. Did you read my post in my voice, with an understanding of who was behind the screen? I guess not.
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I did and do and assume good faith which is why I didn’t just leave it at “Wat” and typed out what I thought was a considered response. Your heart does bleed, I know this to be true, but plenty of people with whom I vehemently disagree have good intentions. Some people truly think there’s a baby genocide happening that only Trump can prevent, and while I strongly disagree, I don’t challenge their moral authority or their intent.
 
TWDeac said:
Condescension notwithstanding, I appreciate you taking my personal knowledge about the situation and casting it aside for your own personal take.
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I didn’t mean to condescend, but surely you’d extend me the same courtesy of assuming I have a reasonable grasp of the context. If you do think Hamas is the primary oppressor of Palestine, as the administrator of a failed state, I would just like to see that position staked out more rather than assumed to be true. The conditions in Gaza were extant when Hamas gained control of the country. How they assert moral authority is repugnant to me, but within a broader colonial framework, they have more constraints on their ability to govern than they do opportunity to improve conditions.
 
TWDeac said:
Appreciate your advice to self reflect, friend. I find it interesting that you took my analogy as offensive because I found your entire post personally offensive.
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That sucks. I wasn’t engaging ad hominem at all. I just have a hard time making any sense of this:

Swap Palestine for the US, MAGA for Hamas, and Palestinians for Americans and see how the quickly the tune changes about murdering innocent MAGA civilians.

Who is Israel in this scenario? And in this scenario, are you advocating for murdering American citizens?
 
It's a hypothetical scenario to put myself in the shoes of a Palestinian civilian. MAGA already has all the hallmarks of a terrorist organization with a top-notch propaganda team. After 20-30 years of MAGA leadership what would the US look like? How would my life change? What could I personally do to fix the situation? Would I be arrested because my family is filled with conservative bootlickers? Would I turn quisling? What about my friends? If the only solution was force, would I have the courage to fight for freedom? Would I be willing to kill the enemy or potentially wound/kill civilians? What if Mexico/Canada entered the conflict?


The reality is that if I were a Palestinian civilian, I would be between a rock and a hard place. I can either die in a collapsed building, get shot by Hamas for talking to the press, or die of disease, starvation, or exposure. No human being should ever be in this position.

That is why I'm not for a ceasefire. Fascist Netenyahu is sidelined and weakened considerably. Giving Hamas an opportunity to regroup and organize would be a gift. They would continue to funnel aide and resources into warfighting capabilities. I'm not giving Israel the benefit of the doubt either - Netanyahu sent them down a path that would have led here eventually. Tt is our imperative now to ensure that the rhetoric and alienation of that regime are fully extinguished.
 
The argument against a ceasefire as “opportunity for Hamas to regroup and attack” is a bad argument no matter who is making it, because that’s not an acceptable military strategy to completely destroy a state and displace or kill 100% of its habitants. It’s not acceptable, and no argument or rhetoric which supports that strategy is worth dignifying.
 
@TWDeac We've had a lot of this conversation before and you're assuming an awful lot about people's intentions who have been discussing this for a long time.

But the bigger issue is that your hypothetical makes no sense. The figure of the Palestinian is perhaps only comparable (if comparable at all) to American Indians if you take your hypothetical seriously. On one hand, there is a degree of tribal autonomy. On the other hand, they are subordinated to a government that illegally occupied its land and has been slowly murdering its people. And I think if you read it like that, then your hypothetical might work? American Indians are between a rock and a hard place. The options are assimilation or slow extermination. Genocides, both.
 
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