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It's gonna be hung! CP3's jersey finally getting retired March 2

JGray and Big E were so good that they finished 12th in the ACC as seniors.
 
CP3 made Wake Forest Jordan's, Duncan did not. And they're awesome.
 
They were good players. They weren't great players. Two great seniors on the same ACC team aren't going to finish 12th in the ACC regardless of the team. If JGray was better he could have passably played point.

The #1, #2, and #3 reasons we were ever as good as we were: Chris Paul, Chris Paul, Chris Paul. He is going to be in the Hall of Fame.
 
To me the most upsetting thing wasn't how he left early, it was how he fouled himself out of the WVU game because he was mad.
 
i was waiting for BFK to drop some knowledge on this thred re: talented players that have come through wake. you guys did know the university was founded all the way back in the 19th century, didn't you?

although I doubt that extrapolation that CD would have averaged 30 ppg with a 3pt line. that's dubious. but CD was always in the back of my mind, which is why my posts have been with respect to this "era." I think it's really tough to compare athletes across so much time due to changes in the game. But yeah, BFK made a compelling argument for CD that my great uncle would agree with.
 
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Fuck Your Couch said:
Newsflash: CP makes players better. Much better. Defining characteristic of his game.
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Thought about this last night when I saw Sportscenter run a big piece on Paul and Rondo's injuries. Paul has missed the last 8 games for the Clippers. They are 2-6 after starting the season 32-10. Celtics are 4-0 since Rondo went down.
 
bobknightfan said:
where do you put Chris Paul? It's really hard to even rank a guy who only played two years with those other guys. In any event, Charlie Davis is a runaway choice for the best guard in WF history
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So 2 years makes it really hard to even rank a guy, but 3 years makes it easy?

Not going to argue against CD. He was awesome by every account I have heard. bkf, did your ban on Wake sports during the Chill era include not watching them on TV?
 
qcdeac said:
So 2 years makes it really hard to even rank a guy, but 3 years makes it easy?

Not going to argue against CD. He was awesome by every account I have heard. bkf, did your ban on Wake sports during the Chill era include not watching them on TV?
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Yep. The disparate treatment that CP3 gets when compared to RR is ridiculous. I love them both. They were both ready for the league and were completely correct to make the jump. RR is (correctly) deified by all. CP3 is scorned by a not insignificant portion of our butthurt fans.
 
ibleedgoldandblack said:
Yep. The disparate treatment that CP3 gets when compared to RR is ridiculous. I love them both. They were both ready for the league and were completely correct to make the jump. RR is (correctly) deified by all. CP3 is scorned by a not insignificant portion of our butthurt fans.
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I think it's fair to say that two years is only a brief stay at a college. Staying three years is a big difference (50% longer). He would have gotten all of the NPOY awards and the team would have been back in line for a preseason #1 ranking. Seeing the team fall off the table in Paul's absence only made people more bitter towards his leaving. The argument is more related to loyalty and his commitment to the university, rather than his impact on the basketball team over two years. Wake fans have also had their perspective affected by having Duncan for four years when he probably would have been the #1 pick after his sophomore season.
 
bobknightfan said:
Charlie Davis played four years at WF, including his freshman year. He was awesome even as a freshman. He scored 41 points the first time he wore a WF uniform, in the Old Gold & Black game against the varsity. Then he started the season by hitting 64 of his first 67 free throws.

First team All-ACC....every year. ACC POY his senior year.
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Maybe I'm not understanding your post, but the NCAA didn't allow freshmen to play varsity until 1972. So saying he played four years at Wake is true, but one is obviously on JV.
 
bobknightfan said:
Sorry, but I have to make one more appearance after that statement. Are you saying that Randolph Childress was the best player in WF history? Really?
Randolph Childress wasn't even the 3rd best guard in WF history. I might be OK with placing him as the 4th best guard in WF history (guard, not overall player).

Charlie Davis was, hands down, the best guard in WF history. Nobody else is even close. I would rank Skip Brown at #2 all-time among WF guards. I guess I might go along with putting Childress #3....
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Randolph Childress led WFU to an ACC Tourney Championship and 2 Sweet Sixteens. That puts him above Skip Brown.
 
Subjective arguments and all that.

And thank BKF, that's why I qualified earlier statements to include Charlie Davis, I never had the privilege of seeing him play. Did Skip Brown hit as many clutch shots as RC?

And whoever says Duncan was the most "gifted" player in Wake history is debatable. He was given rare physical attributes that lended themselves beautifully to being a great big man. The fact he had to work so hard to develop his skills probably made him more effective as he learned how to be proficient and efficient with the tools he was given. But he didn't exactly battle Ralph Sampson and Hakeen Olajuwon during his career. Serge Zwikker, Cherokee Parks, Greg Newton, Tom Wideman, Eddie Elisma etc. One could argue there was a serious dearth of big man talent when he played in the ACC those final two years. Brenda hadn't even come along yet. Remember how Timmy got dominated by Marcus Camby his junior year?? Timmy was an amazing player who changed the game for WFU and allowed them to compete at the highest level, but there are many ways to skin this cat. So hard to compare eras, accomplishments, strength of competition etc. But at least we've been blessed to enjoy rare talents like CP3, TD, Chill, RoRo etc.

But yeah, I wasn't the one who began bringing other players into the discussion and comparing their accomplishments. You either agree that CP3 meant enough to WFU to have his jersey lifted to the rafters or you don't cuz he didn't stay a third year. I see both arguments. Hindsight is 20/20, in retrospect, it's much easier now to see how much CP3, and still currently does, means to Wake basketball. Even though not even his efforts can put out this dumpster fire of a program right now.
 
bobknightfan said:
Obviously....well, on the freshman team, actually, not the "JV" team. My point was that he played a full four years during which time his performance could be evaluated. If he had had a 4th year with the varsity, his records would have been even more unbelievable. He was far better as a freshman than any player we had on the varsity. He would have been 1st Team All-ACC as a freshman, too. As it was, he scored 48 more field goals than Childress scored....in 41 fewer games. He is the best guard in WF history. It is not even debatable.
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Considering that Wake's ACC records in Davis's three years were 8-6, 6-8, and 7-7, I'd say it's open for debate. Childress won games and set the tone for the entire ACC. He also played for a coach who was very happy playing games in the 60-point range in an era where they didn't call a foul on your for breathing on a guy.
 
Ha ha. Your moral indignation over fine dining is overwhelmed by your love of really old basketball players. Welcome back, BKF.
 
Fuck Your Couch said:
They were good players. They weren't great players. Two great seniors on the same ACC team aren't going to finish 12th in the ACC regardless of the team. If JGray was better he could have passably played point.

The #1, #2, and #3 reasons we were ever as good as we were: Chris Paul, Chris Paul, Chris Paul. He is going to be in the Hall of Fame.
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Go look back at how bad the talent on that 2006 team was. Duncan and Childress couldn't have done much more with them. Skip screwed the program with pathetic recruiting.

Again, the key point is Josh Howard + Taron/Vytas/Levy + Big E/Gray/Trent = 1st place in the ACC. Paul couldn't do any more than than in two years with them.


Why the Deac Not said:
Subjective arguments and all that.

And thank BKF, that's why I qualified earlier statements to include Charlie Davis, I never had the privilege of seeing him play. Did Skip Brown hit as many clutch shots as RC?

And whoever says Duncan was the most "gifted" player in Wake history is debatable. He was given rare physical attributes that lended themselves beautifully to being a great big man. The fact he had to work so hard to develop his skills probably made him more effective as he learned how to be proficient and efficient with the tools he was given. But he didn't exactly battle Ralph Sampson and Hakeen Olajuwon during his career. Serge Zwikker, Cherokee Parks, Greg Newton, Tom Wideman, Eddie Elisma etc. One could argue there was a serious dearth of big man talent when he played in the ACC those final two years. Brenda hadn't even come along yet. Remember how Timmy got dominated by Marcus Camby his junior year?? Timmy was an amazing player who changed the game for WFU and allowed them to compete at the highest level, but there are many ways to skin this cat. So hard to compare eras, accomplishments, strength of competition etc. But at least we've been blessed to enjoy rare talents like CP3, TD, Chill, RoRo etc.

But yeah, I wasn't the one who began bringing other players into the discussion and comparing their accomplishments. You either agree that CP3 meant enough to WFU to have his jersey lifted to the rafters or you don't cuz he didn't stay a third year. I see both arguments. Hindsight is 20/20, in retrospect, it's much easier now to see how much CP3, and still currently does, means to Wake basketball. Even though not even his efforts can put out this dumpster fire of a program right now.
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Never thought I'd see someone denigrate Tim Duncan to prop up Chris Paul.

First of all, Camby didn't only dominate Duncan. Two great defensive players worked over each other.

Duncan was 4-18 and had 9 and 12.

But Camby was 6-19 and managed to get to the line enough for 17/9.

Second, the ACC was incredibly loaded the post during Duncan's time at Wake. Even in your post, Parks was a lottery pick. Zwikker and Elisma were 2nd rounders. He faced Joe Smith, Rasheed, Stackhouse, Montross, even guys like Sharone Wright and Todd Fuller. Not many bigs can say they faced that much talent in conference in college.
 
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