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It's happening before my very eyes...

I like how Dino has gone from bad coach to bad citizen to sexual deviant. If Bz is around in 5 years I can't even imagine what stories we'll hear about Dino. Personally, I blame Dino for 9-11.
 
pourdeac said:
That sort of misses my point. For Wellman the culture change was just getting rid of Dino and bringing in a Stevens-like coach to coach up the players and get them to "straighten out" their issues. Why would he worry about "problems" left on the team? Bz was supposed to fix those players...from Wellman's point of view.
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Huh? You were the one who just said that [Redacted] and Wellman were alluding to "cleaning house" (ie, getting rid of problem players) during their press conferences and how that showed that the claims now that they had "cleaned house" were not post hoc rationalizations?
 
RChildress107 said:
Name the specific problems that existed when Wellman hired [Redacted] in April 2010.
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We don't know and it really doesn't matter. Do you really want to keep pushing that boulder up the hill? All you need to accept is there were some problems (likely less control than under Skip) and enough of them to piss Wellman and others off. Things don't have to be and never had to be perfect, but there is some sort of line somewhere that Dino crossed. Why can't that be enough?
 
pourdeac said:
We don't know and it really doesn't matter. Do you really want to keep pushing that boulder up the hill? All you need to accept is there were some problems (likely less control than under Skip) and enough of them to piss Wellman and others off. Things don't have to be and never had to be perfect, but there is some sort of line somewhere that Dino crossed. Why can't that be enough?
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That line you mention is entirely subjective, which is fine, most job performance evaluations are going to include some subjectivity. But when Wellman/the AD pushed various narratives upon the fan base that were incongruent with A) reality and B) each other, I think it's natural for elements of said fan base to push back and ask these questions.

The whisper campaign against Dino undertaken by certain parts of the fan base, the community and (very likely) elements of the Athletic Department remains one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed that's remotely associated with Wake Forest. (The dude who shit all over Collins Hall that one year is also up there.) And then to lecture about "culture" and "class" and other veiled pseudo-racist allusions meant to cater to big, old money donors? GTFO.
 
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Regardless of the reason for Dino's firing, abject cronyism was not the solution to the problem. The only reason I can think of for the Bz hire is Ron wanted a guy in the driver's seat who was not going to question Ron. An old friend with a spotty record fit the bill. No other team in the ACC under any circumstance would have even interviewed him. We can have an average team in spite of Bz but we will never be great again. That simple.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Huh? I remember sone vague standard coachspeak references to culture but absolutely nothing about cleaning house or fixing the program.

Clawson made reference to culture in his press conference too, and there is certainly no need to clean house in our football program.
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The "right culture" was talked about from the start and was discussed endlessly on these boards...which was the entire "socks" thing wasn't it? The entire culture issue is also implied by the hire, since culture is something Bz harps on everywhere he goes and that means there were some issues. Bz came in and started making all sorts of rules before the season even started to pretty obviously change things and get control of the program. Are you saying none of that happened? It hasn't been some sort of post hoc rationalization, it was there from the start. Why does that bother you?

You understand the problems that happened with some of the players, forcing them to leave, but you then act like nothing happened and it's all just an excuse. I really don't understand that.
 
Just seeing this thread. Wow. Utter domination. BKF has done some impressive dodging and side stepping completely valid and logical points, especially considering his viewpoint on Bobby Knight.

Dirk nailed it. There was absolutely zero reason to hire Bzz. He simply did not have the resume to warrant a job at any ACC school, no less one of the charter members and one with much history as Wake. I think it is clear Wellman intentionally hired a wet-blanket yes-man. Literally any other coach with even a slightly better resume could have made more with these kids than Bzz has. The revisionist history, even when shown to be incongruent, inconsistent, and baseless, is astounding.
 
The socks thing started the conference season during the 1st year when we started losing at historic levels.

No, I am saying that there was no intention when [Redacted] was hired that any players were going to be on the way out. In fact [Redacted] went out of his way to keep all of Dino's recruits. Then all hell broke loose during the 1st year and the summer after and then the storyline changed to Bzzzz being brought in to clean out the problem players in the program.

Pretty straightforward.
 
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ChrisL68 said:
Huh? You were the one who just said that [Redacted] and Wellman were alluding to "cleaning house" (ie, getting rid of problem players) during their press conferences and how that showed that the claims now that they had "cleaned house" were not post hoc rationalizations?
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I've been saying from the very beginning that the issue for Wellman was Dino and that "clean house" for Wellman meant getting rid of Dino. I never once said they were saying getting rid of players during their press conference.
 
pourdeac said:
That sort of misses my point. For Wellman the culture change was just getting rid of Dino and bringing in a Stevens-like coach to coach up the players and get them to "straighten out" their issues. Why would he worry about "problems" left on the team? Bz was supposed to fix those players...from Wellman's point of view.
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pourdeac said:
We don't know and it really doesn't matter. Do you really want to keep pushing that boulder up the hill? All you need to accept is there were some problems (likely less control than under Skip) and enough of them to piss Wellman and others off. Things don't have to be and never had to be perfect, but there is some sort of line somewhere that Dino crossed. Why can't that be enough?
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pourdeac said:
What in the world does something that happened at CU have to do with the terms of what happened at Wake?
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pourdeac said:
I've been saying from the very beginning that the issue for Wellman was Dino and that "clean house" for Wellman meant getting rid of Dino. I never once said they were saying getting rid of players during their press conference.
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circular-reasoning.jpg
 
pourdeac said:
I've been saying from the very beginning that the issue for Wellman was Dino and that "clean house" for Wellman meant getting rid of Dino. I never once said they were saying getting rid of players during their press conference.
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Hey, if you want to have your own special definition for what terms mean, don't let me stop you. But when you start basing arguments with people based on those definitions, you can expect alot of confusion, just like has happened with everybody on this point.
 
IrishSlim said:
The whisper campaign against Dino undertaken by certain parts of the fan base, the community and (very likely) elements of the Athletic Department remains one of the most disgusting things I've ever witnessed that's remotely associated with Wake Forest. (The dude who shit all over Collins Hall that one year is also up there.) And then to lecture about "culture" and "class" and other veiled pseudo-racist allusions meant to cater to big, old money donors? GTFO.
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I agree totally with that. I was also disgusted by what happened that spring. But I also feel that Bz put Wellman in a pretty bad situation on several levels. I don't think Wellman expected things to go anywhere nearly as bad as they did and he had little wiggle room. It's entirely his fault for taking the risk with Bz, but a tough situation none-the-less. I think a lot of the comments came off worse than intended. If we had a coach with better PR skills my guess is it would have seemed more normal.
 
ChrisL68 said:
Hey, if you want to have your own special definition for what terms mean, don't let me stop you. But when you start basing arguments with people based on those definitions, you can expect alot of confusion, just like has happened with everybody on this point.
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Everyone has a different definition of all these terms.....so sure there's a lot of confusion. But I've been pretty clear from the beginning....and there is NO WAY it's circular logic Strickland. Wellman believed Dino to be the problem and wanted him replaced. That viewpoint is clear as day. IMO he had a personal issue with him of some type. He wanted to replace the Skip/Dino style/method/approach..whatever you want to call it...and wanted a Stevens-like coach.

Whatever issues or problems that existed with the players were secondary to Dino and would be solved by hiring the Stevens-like coach. Said coach would fix the players, and in the case of the recruits would get them off on the right foot (which was basically stated by Wellman at one point). Wellman's desire to make the change was strong and he rushed to get rid of Dino.

I don't see a problem with that viewpoint...other than its not "fuck Bz" enough for Strickland.
 
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ChrisL68 said:
The socks thing started the conference season during the 1st year when we started losing at historic levels.
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I believe the socks thing happened during practice or a scrimmage before the season started. It was already a joke when we played Stetson...IIRC.
 
birdman said:
Calm down, I was in the band for two years, I like the band and the band directors. I was attempting to point out the silliness of the argument that a college student engaging in sexual activity late at night while on a trip for the college would lead to the firing of the coach or director or whoever, because it means the organization is out of control. It would be completely ridiculous if Dr. Bowen was dismissed over a trombonists actions.

Ahh Fuck, it this is stupid.
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Let me tell you, a double-fault final-play elimination hasn't occurred since the Helsinki episode of 1919, and I think we all remember how THAT turned out!"*
 
DeacDaddy said:
Correct.

BKF apparently gets to decide what color you are, and render his judgments accordingly.

Remind me again how much "obscene wealth" Bobby "O'Reilly Auto Parts" Knight has raked in during his lifetime?
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bkf rides his horse backwards, says "no" for "yes" and bathes in dirt. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
 
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