Man, I miss Skip

[wfumike02]

With the new emphasis on defense? :rofl:


Prosser was one of the worst defensive coaches in the history of basketball. Players seemed more concerned with getting the ball out of the net to start the fast break than actually defending shots.

Let's be honest and say Prosser's "new emphasis on defense" was simply a theory.

A theory proven out in Dino's first year.

"One of the worst defensive coaches in the history of basketball?" Exaggerate much?

Dino himself said it was Skip's idea to revamp the defense. And the results were born out Dino's first year.

 

[IAppreciateIt]

Eh, that's not entirely true. Our defense in Dino's first year wasn't markedly better than it was in a number of Skip years, and wasn't nearly as good as it was in Skip's first two season. Our defense turned into a strong point when Al-Farouq Aminu, the best defensive player we've had since Duncan, got here.

And I think we'd have played far more productive defense Skip because we would have avoided the packline defense -- Skip always tried to force turnovers, get out and run and control the defensive glass to fuel the fastbreak (the weaknesses of running the packline) -- I think we would have done a ton of pressing if Skip had been around, which would have been a perfect fit for those teams.

But it's mostly about the players, and Skip had started to bring in athletes with size who excelled on the defensive end, which we were sorely lacking from 2004-2006 -- I don't think we had a single above-average defensive player during those years except maybe Levy or CP, while I'd say Weaver and maybe Clark were the only below-average defensive player on the 09 squad.

 

[PhDeac]

That personnel would have been better for defense, not necessarily the coaching.

 

[IAppreciateIt]

That personnel would have been better for defense, not necessarily the coaching.

And our teams under Skip played good defense when the defensive personnel was good. The biggest change in our defense wasn't the coaching, it was the recruiting.

 

[PhDeac]

Right. The coaching never emphasized defense, the personnel just played it.

 

[TuffaloDeac10]

Right. The coaching never emphasized defense, the personnel just played it.

Who brings the personnel to the school again?

 

[buckets]

Right. The coaching never emphasized defense, the personnel just played it.

Skip coached to the team's strengths.

 

[dartsndeacs]

Our defense turned into a strong point when Al-Farouq Aminu, the best defensive player we've had since Duncan, got here.

Josh Howard says hello. Skip coached him too. We didn't win the ACC regular season title on offense his senior year.

 

[PhDeac]

Skip coached to the team's strengths.

That's fine. Gotta improve the weaknesses, too. We all knew defense was a major weakness on the 04-05 team and it never got addressed and killed us against WVU.


wfumike, any response to my response to your call out post?

 

[IrishSlim]

Define "good coach". I think Odom, Skip, Dino, and Grobe have had good periods. They each struggled mightily without the exact right combination of talent. Wake doesn't have the luxury to have narrow coaches who need a specific mix of talent to be successful. We need coaches who can mold the best talent they get into a good product on the field/court. That has not be a strength of our coaches over the last 20 years.

If by "good coach" you mean a coach who wasn't eventually fired or let go, then no. People act like I'm some negative hater. In my time, we haven't had a basketball/football/women's hoops coach who just rode off into the sunset and retired at Wake or even one who was successful at Wake and left to take a better job. At some point, Wellman, Hearn/Hatch, and the Trustees decided they weren't the best fit for Wake and fired them or let their contract run out. So I don't know why I get singled out for opinions that the majority come to agree with eventually. You don't see a lot of clamoring that Odom, Caldwell, or Dino should still be our coach.

This post right here is why people treat you like a caricature.

 

[wfumike02]

That's fine. Gotta improve the weaknesses, too. We all knew defense was a major weakness on the 04-05 team and it never got addressed and killed us against WVU.


wfumike, any response to my response to your call out post?

Wasn't trying to be a dick and call you out. Your response was fair and gave your position, so I let it be. It just seems like a lot of times you are quick to blame coaching when the explanation may actually lie deeper.

As an example, a few posts up you mention that the personnel may have been better for defense but not the coaching. I seem to remember one of the players on Skip's first team making a comment about how much more Skip emphasized defense than Odom did. I think our defensive efficiency went up under Skip but we also gave up more PPG because we played at such a faster pace.

But back to my point. You assume that the personnel must have overcome the coaching when our defense was good even though the opposite was just as likely. Yes, I know the coach recruits the players. It just seems to be a common assumption for you, that's all.

 

[marquee moon]

"One of the worst defensive coaches in the history of basketball?" Exaggerate much?

Dino himself said it was Skip's idea to revamp the defense. And the results were born out Dino's first year.

Dino inexplicably implementing a packlIne defense

 

[PhDeac]

This post right here is why people treat you like a caricature.

You're a successful author. This hit and run post is beneath you.

mike, I'm probably more "quick to blame" coaches before I emphasize structure and context more than most. Fair criticism, but eventually the coach gets blamed.

 

[IrishSlim]

You're a successful author. This hit and run post is beneath you.

mike, I'm probably more "quick to blame" coaches before I emphasize structure and context more than most. Fair criticism, but eventually the coach gets blamed.

I'm being 100% serious. You're splicing the word "good" like President Clinton did with "is," inadvertently making a mockery of language. Answering questions with more questions rather than an answer is both tiring and frustrating. Hence the reactions you often get. Just my two cents.

 

[wfumike02]

Dino inexplicably implementing a packlIne defense

That was Skip's doing.

Before former Deacons head coach Skip Prosser died of a heart attack in July of 2007, he and Gaudio, his top assistant, planned to install a new defense based on the one used by Dick Bennett at Wisconsin and Washington State. The "pack-line" approach calls for intense ball pressure with other defenders carefully guarding areas to halt drives and encourage jump shots, all theoretically contested.

Wake Forest coaches met with Tony Bennett, Dick's son, and his Washington State staff. They also studied the defense with coaches from Xavier, another pack-line program.

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/jan/20/how_will_wake_forest_handle_prosperity68909/?wap

P.S. Yeah, I did see who wrote that article. Asshole.

 

[dartsndeacs]

I'm being 100% serious. You're splicing the word "good" like President Clinton did with "is," inadvertently making a mockery of language. Answering questions with more questions rather than an answer is both tiring and frustrating. Hence the reactions you often get. Just my two cents.

This argument is on a much higher plane of intelligence than I reside. I have no idea what this means.

 

[DCDeac]

I'm being 100% serious. You're splicing the word "good" like President Clinton did with "is," inadvertently making a mockery of language. Answering questions with more questions rather than an answer is both tiring and frustrating. Hence the reactions you often get. Just my two cents.

Inadvertently?

I guess I give Ph more credit than you do.

 

[PhDeac]

This argument is on a much higher plane of intelligence than I reside. I have no idea what this means.

Yeah really. My post didn't have any question marks. I was asked if Wake had any good coaches. I gave my understanding of good and the high/low points of the coaches. I also pointed out that if we have had good coaches, the powers that be fired/let go of good coaches as well. I'm not on Irish's level as an author. So sue me. Maybe Irish is just overthinking my posts.

 

[IrishSlim]

Yeah really. My post didn't have any question marks. I was asked if Wake had any good coaches. I gave my understanding of good and the high/low points of the coaches. I also pointed out that if we have had good coaches, the powers that be fired/let go of good coaches as well. I'm not on Irish's level as an author. So sue me. Maybe Irish is just overthinking my posts.

Naw, it's not that. It's just that some people enjoy communicating directly and clearly, rather than wading through constant equivocation.

Keep doing your thing, man, don't stop because I'm offering unsolicited, and likely condescending, advice. But that post I quoted above is exactly why you get flamed so much - don't plead ignorance to why in the future, after you post some weird passive-aggressive dig at Skip or equivocate around a direct question.

 

[IAppreciateIt]

That was Skip's doing.



http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/jan/20/how_will_wake_forest_handle_prosperity68909/?wap

P.S. Yeah, I did see who wrote that article. Asshole.

We didn't implement the packline until Dino's second year. I also don't think Skip should get any of the blame for it -- the coaches definitely decided to change something about our defense, but I'm pretty sure it was Dino found the packline on his own (I believe after Skip passed).

I have a tough time believing Skip would have implemented something as ill-fitting for our team as the packline D. Like I said earlier, Skip would have still tried to push the tempo, force turnovers and control the defensive glass, especially with the horses we had.