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Michelle Obama gets into a scrap with Republicans

Because if that's the case then what is your explanation for reality where people of color are not as successful at graduating high school, college, getting a post graduate degree, even with the degree have a harder time finding jobs when they hve the exact same credentials as a white person?

It's not about the past, so what is it? Are people of color not trying as hard? Are they more likely to not be raised in two parent households? Is this due to any historical events or did we just all pop out in America five years ago equal?
 
jhmd2000 said:
Because the marketplace continues to have both patent and latest racism.

But let's say it is your child: do you tell them to try their best anyway (whether the challenge is intolerance or some other challenge), or do you tell them to give up because it wasn't their fault (and they don't have "privilege")? Why don't I think you would settle for that for your child? Why should someone else's child settle for it?
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Yes! Ding ding. Racism in the market manifests itself in ways advantageous to white people thus white privilege in this area.

I tell my kid to make the best of the situation and work harder. I also believe in policy reflecting reality - racism still in the market can be aided by types of affirmative action policies.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
So if anyone fails it's their own fault for not taking advantage of the opportunities they've been afforded?

Serious question.
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My 6:30 meeting got here early. I am happy to address this when I have time tonight. In the short, just put yourself in the shoes of the parent of the kid being discriminated against. I'm not saying we should ignore the bigotry....of course not----nobody should get a pass on that (Not even 90 year old Donald Sterling). What I am saying is "Okay, do we fixate on it or do we bow up and knock it on its ass.' I worry you guys on the left have fallen in love with a politically helpful message that renders a great deal of harm to the individual. The victim shtick is many things (some of them great politics), but I also think it is a hurtful message to the individual on the receiving end. JMO.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Yes! Ding ding. Racism in the market manifests itself in ways advantageous to white people thus white privilege in this area.

I tell my kid to make the best of the situation and work harder. I also believe in policy reflecting reality - racism still in the market can be aided by types of affirmative action policies.
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I know you think that. We've covered that. I do not feel the second wrong makes a right, nor do I feel "race" is a proxy for every ill.
 
This thread was actually getting productive until jhmderailer showed up. Can't you just suck on your own school's website or start your own thread?
 
PhDeac said:
May want to thank Obama for that. Lowest national unemployment since Bush.
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I will say that Obama is the best President we have had since #43, but he seems be doing a much better job in red states at creating jobs.
 
Jesus. How did we get here again? #neverfails
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Because if that's the case then what is your explanation for reality where people of color are not as successful at graduating high school, college, getting a post graduate degree, even with the degree have a harder time finding jobs when they hve the exact same credentials as a white person?

It's not about the past, so what is it? Are people of color not trying as hard? Are they more likely to not be raised in two parent households? Is this due to any historical events or did we just all pop out in America five years ago equal?
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The answer is plain and difficult: yes, there are historical factors that continue to linger into the present that make things unequal. No one is debating that fact. My question is, "True, now what do we do about it?" Do we tell all children that the best way to rectify what has happened in the past is to treat each other with respect in the present and future and establish the expectation that every child is the single biggest factor between their own failures (as they define it) and their own personal successes (as they define it), or do we tell our children that they are helpless victims of a system rigged against them and their only hope is that the government will step between them and life and solve their problems for them, Nannystate style? If you want to keep people mired in the past, keep pushing that victim message. Tell them that if they don't succeed in school, it's not their fault. Tell them that if they don't get jobs, it's not their fault. Hell, we both know it is partially true (we disagree on the comparative fault, but there's no doubt history is a factor), but where does that get the child in the end? If it was your own child (and yes, I will keep saying this because it is true), what would you want the message to be (and then more importantly, why are your policy answers so different)?

We need MORE policies like what the First Lady is pushing here (and for that matter, more policies like the individual mandate). We need a whole lot less of "It's okay, it isn't your fault, because _______". I know you guys don't want to admit this is true, but if rain fell out of the sky, numbers would blame privilege. We don't have a 100% estate tax to reshuffle the cards at the end of every generation and we never will (even your party has realized the folly of pushing that tax), so it's time to get over the pipedream of the perfectly re-leveled playing field. Accept that things will never be "fair" and figure out how to make people's lives better than they would be under the now in fashion "But it's never your fault..." Omni-answer. That's the plain but difficult truth.
 
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jhmd2000 said:
My 6:30 meeting got here early. I am happy to address this when I have time tonight. In the short, just put yourself in the shoes of the parent of the kid being discriminated against. I'm not saying we should ignore the bigotry....of course not----nobody should get a pass on that (Not even 90 year old Donald Sterling). What I am saying is "Okay, do we fixate on it or do we bow up and knock it on its ass.' I worry you guys on the left have fallen in love with a politically helpful message that renders a great deal of harm to the individual. The victim shtick is many things (some of them great politics), but I also think it is a hurtful message to the individual on the receiving end. JMO.
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I think it's just accepting the reality of the situation. We've both agreed now that there is racism in the market and your response is that somehow identifying this fact "victimizes" the individual.

I'm sure you don't mean it this way but the way I read that is: "well the facts are there but it's not a real problem unless you over focus on it and then make it worse than it really is."

Hell this could have always been said by white people over the course of American history. Wasn't true in the 1800s and I don't find it particularly helpful now.
 
The ADA "victimizes" persons with disabilities, what are your thoughts on that legislation? Hell it specifically prescribes that employers make reasonable accommodations for the employees. That must really grind conservative's gears right?

Is that an example of "good government" (i.e. In the bedrooms) or "bad government" (I.e. healthy foods at school)?
 
It's time we stop calling veterans "victims" and just shut down all the VA hospitals altogether.
 
jhmd2000 said:
Because the marketplace continues to have both patent and latest racism.

But let's say it is your child: do you tell them to try their best anyway (whether the challenge is intolerance or some other challenge), or do you tell them to give up because it wasn't their fault (and they don't have "privilege")? Why don't I think you would settle for that for your child? Why should someone else's child settle for it?
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Back to this line, I think it's a little bit troubling that the question is "what would you do if these were your kids" instead of "here's a problem we agree exists in the marketplace, how can we try to fix this?" It doesn't need to be a personal problem where my kids are involved, it's a societal problem that is a major issue in 2014. We don't need to play the victim game so we can try to blame them to the best of our abilities, I think it is far more prudent to actually work on finding actual solutions to bridging the problem that is "the marketplace continues to have both patent and latent racism."

This is a big goal to address this problem and I don't know the best way to do it, but I will say that I do not think the best way to address this problem is for your child of color to be told that they need to try harder to make up for the difference. It's certainly some component of a solution and regardless of what color my child is I would stress that they always need to try as hard as possible in everything they do, but it is not an actual solution for addressing the actual problem - it merely addresses the byproducts of the racism issue.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Back to this line, I think it's a little bit troubling that the question is "what would you do if these were your kids" instead of "here's a problem we agree exists in the marketplace, how can we try to fix this?" It doesn't need to be a personal problem where my kids are involved, it's a societal problem that is a major issue in 2014. We don't need to play the victim game so we can try to blame them to the best of our abilities, I think it is far more prudent to actually work on finding actual solutions to bridging the problem that is "the marketplace continues to have both patent and latent racism."

This is a big goal to address this problem and I don't know the best way to do it, but I will say that I do not think the best way to address this problem is for your child of color to be told that they need to try harder to make up for the difference. It's certainly some component of a solution and regardless of what color my child is I would stress that they always need to try as hard as possible in everything they do, but it is not an actual solution for addressing the actual problem - it merely addresses the byproducts of the racism issue.
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I don't think that's the only way to address "this" problem (I do think that individual ownership of one's achievement is the "best", though) but a good way to invent brand new problems is to constantly remind them that the system is rigged against, that they are victim, and they will never succeed without outside interventions on their behalf ("And by the way, here is a public benefit to ease the symptoms...you won't become dependent on it though, right?"). You may not intend for that to be the message, but when people bring up "the past" as the Omni-explanation (as someone did in this very thread for truancy), it certainly doesn't help the trajectory of that person's life (which is a more important broader question than the single issue of the role of racism).
 
jhmd, how do you teach your kids not to take advantage of racism in the market?
 
jhmd2000 said:
I don't think that's the only way to address "this" problem (I do think that individual ownership of one's achievement is the "best", though) but a good way to invent brand new problems is to constantly remind them that the system is rigged against, that they are victim, and they will never succeed without outside interventions on their behalf ("And by the way, here is a public benefit to ease the symptoms...you won't become dependent on it though, right?"). You may not intend for that to be the message, but when people bring up "the past" as the Omni-explanation (as someone did in this very thread for truancy), it certainly doesn't help the trajectory of that person's life (which is a more important broader question than the single issue of the role of racism).
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The effects that you're talking about are considerably less damaging than avoiding the problem all together.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
The effects that you're talking about are considerably less damaging than avoiding the problem all together.
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That's a matter of opinion and you are certainly entitled to yours. I look at what kind of culture we are creating and have my doubts. If a kid is not going to school, he needs to go to school, not find dead people to blame for his inaction. There are lot of things to blame on dead people, and plenty of living people, but there are so many self-destructive decisions people make that disqualify them from reaching their potential. Constantly telling them that nothing in their life is their fault and there is always someone else to blame, and it doesn't matter if they try b/c the system is rigged against them anyway must make for good politics, but it is an awful message.
 
PhDeac said:
jhmd, how do you teach your kids not to take advantage of racism in the market?
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The same way I plan to teach them not to fall out of airplanes. That's a pretty dumb question, respectfully.
 
jhmd2000 said:
That's a matter of opinion and you are certainly entitled to yours. I look at what kind of culture we are creating and have my doubts. If a kid is not going to school, he needs to go to school, not find dead people to blame for his inaction. There are lot of things to blame on dead people, and plenty of living people, but there are so many self-destructive decisions people make that disqualify them from reaching their potential. Constantly telling them that nothing in their life is their fault and there is always someone else to blame, and it doesn't matter if they try b/c the system is rigged against them anyway must make for good politics, but it is an awful message.
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Nobody is saying this on here.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
Nobody is saying this on here.
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Not to mention that we've slayed the generational dependence straw man many, many times, AND that's not what this thread was about.

Good on you for trying, numbers, but jh has YEARS of trolling experience on you.
 
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