Moral Monday

[Deacon923]

Your post is just so incredibly dishonest that I don't know where to begin. I'm the one that doesn't want to engage? Really? Oh, okay.

Fine. If you are going to count speechifying, for the 1,000,000th time, about how hard work and honesty is the answer and assistance leads to dependency, and categorically refusing to provide evidence for your position or refute the evidence provided by others, as "engaging", then great. You engaged.

And you'd explain 12 million people who came here to work (and found it), how, exactly?

First of all, not all of the 12,000,000 are employed. Here is an estimate by an anti-immigrant group that thinks its about 8,000,000.http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-aliens-taking-u-s-jobs

Second, most of the current crop of illegal aliens came to the US before the recession. Illegal immigration from south of the border has almost stopped, or even reversed (self-deportation, in Mitt's terms) since then. http://www.stanford.edu/group/recessiontrends/cgi-bin/web/sites/all/themes/barron/pdf/Immigration_fact_sheet.pdf If one uses Latino unemployment as a rough proxy for illegal immigrant unemployment, Latino unemployment is higher than the national average. http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/money/2013/07/05/latino-unemployment-stays-at-1-us-economy-adds-15000-jobs/

So, your comment relates to a period of substantially higher employment in fields open to illegal immigrants, mainly construction during the bubble. Your comment does not reflect today's reality of 15%+ real unemployment.

The idea that America, in 2013, has excess demand for workers is silly. As I have posted several times, there are currently three workers looking for every available job, plus more unemployed people who have given up looking.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

I don't know why you guys think that jhmd would deign to engage you on plebeian little statistics and data and specific policy ideas when he can speak in grand platitudes, use huge words, try to make himself sound smart, and condescend to anyone who doesn't agree with him.

 

[Deacon923]

Gives me something to do when I'm bored at work I guess.

 

[jhmd2000]

Fine. If you are going to count speechifying, for the 1,000,000th time, about how hard work and honesty is the answer and assistance leads to dependency, and categorically refusing to provide evidence for your position or refute the evidence provided by others, as "engaging", then great. You engaged.



First of all, not all of the 12,000,000 are employed. Here is an estimate by an anti-immigrant group that thinks its about 8,000,000.http://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-aliens-taking-u-s-jobs

Second, most of the current crop of illegal aliens came to the US before the recession. Illegal immigration from south of the border has almost stopped, or even reversed (self-deportation, in Mitt's terms) since then. http://www.stanford.edu/group/recessiontrends/cgi-bin/web/sites/all/themes/barron/pdf/Immigration_fact_sheet.pdf If one uses Latino unemployment as a rough proxy for illegal immigrant unemployment, Latino unemployment is higher than the national average. http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/money/2013/07/05/latino-unemployment-stays-at-1-us-economy-adds-15000-jobs/

So, your comment relates to a period of substantially higher employment in fields open to illegal immigrants, mainly construction during the bubble. Your comment does not reflect today's reality of 15%+ real unemployment.

The idea that America, in 2013, has excess demand for workers is silly. As I have posted several times, there are currently three workers looking for every available job, plus more unemployed people who have given up looking.

If I wanted to ensure that we have a permanent, dependent class in this country, I would argue forcefully to keep up the charade that is our entitlement system.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

I don't know why you guys think that jhmd would deign to engage you on plebeian little statistics and data and specific policy ideas when he can speak in grand platitudes, use huge words, try to make himself sound smart, and condescend to anyone who doesn't agree with him.

---->

If I wanted to ensure that we have a permanent, dependent class in this country, I would argue forcefully to keep up the charade that is our entitlement system.

 

[WakeandBake]

Gives me something to do when I'm bored at work I guess.

this. Purely sport

 

[jhmd2000]

I don't know why you guys think that jhmd would deign to engage you on plebeian little statistics and data and specific policy ideas when he can speak in grand platitudes, use huge words, try to make himself sound smart, and condescend to anyone who doesn't agree with him.

I point to data all the time, you guys just aren't interested in it. You can overlay charts of the rise of entitlements and single parent homes (as I have done, repeatedly), and you guys just shrug your shoulders and deny a causal connection (and then deny I provided data, of course). Horse + water = dehydration.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

I point to data all the time, you guys just aren't interested in it. You can overlay charts of the rise of entitlements and single parent homes (as I have done, repeatedly), and you guys just shrug your shoulders and deny a causal connection (and then deny I provided data, of course). Horse + water = dehydration.

Your ignorance of basic statistical theory is astounding. Almost as much as your lack of self awareness.

jhmd: "These two things happened at roughly the same time, so therefore one must be caused by the other, because they happened in a vacuum with no other changing variables whatsoever. And if you don't agree with me, you are a moron who is not worthy of my time."

 

[jhmd2000]

Your ignorance of basic statistical theory is astounding. Almost as much as your lack of self awareness.

jhmd: "These two things happened at roughly the same time, so therefore one must be caused by the other, because they happened in a vacuum with no other changing variables whatsoever. And if you don't agree with me, you are a moron who is not worthy of my time."

BBD: I'd like to see what evidence you have that supports your concluding clause. Specifics, please.

To review: you begin your post by leveling a sweeping, condescending accusation, then conclude your post by decrying my willingness to debate civilly. Did I get that right?

 

[bmoneydeac]

The idea that America, in 2013, has excess demand for workers is silly. As I have posted several times, there are currently three workers looking for every available job, plus more unemployed people who have given up looking.

Takes some real Carolina math to make those numbers work.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

BBD: I'd like to see what evidence you have that supports your concluding clause. Specifics, please.

To review: you begin your post by leveling a sweeping, condescending accusation, then conclude your post by decrying my willingness to debate civilly. Did I get that right?

Dude, you post like a complete asshole. I'm not the only one who thinks so. The worst part is, you don't even own it. Just own up to being an asshole. It would make you much more tolerable.

 

[WakeandBake]

It's the pretzel logic he applies in his anything-to-lower-my-taxes approach to politics and governance that is most entertaining, like when he turns it around and says that anyone who wants to see the poorest among us fed and medicated actually doesn't care about them and doesn't believe they are worthy of any better, but he does with tough love. genius

 

[jhmd2000]

Dude, you post like a complete asshole. I'm not the only one who thinks so. The worst part is, you don't even own it. Just own up to being an asshole. It would make you much more tolerable.

So, yeah. It seems I got that exactly right. You call people "a complete asshole" and then tell them they don't debate civilly. You even threw in a "lack of self awareness" blast. Amazing.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

So, yeah. It seems I got that exactly right, and you even threw in a "lack of self awareness" blast as the icing on that little cake of yours.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

I admit that I post like an asshole. I do not lack for self-awareness. You seem to think you are above the fray, and that you are the only virtuous one, while everybody else dives into incivility. When in fact, you were the OVERALL NUMBER 1 SEED in the Worst Poster Tournament.

 

[ChrisL68]

jhmd swears that the rj axiom doesn't apply to him.

 

[dmcheatw]

Your ignorance of basic statistical theory is astounding. Almost as much as your lack of self awareness.

jhmd: "These two things happened at roughly the same time, so therefore one must be caused by the other, because they happened in a vacuum with no other changing variables whatsoever. And if you don't agree with me, you are a moron who is not worthy of my time."

very true... you can make a graph say anything and it actually can take a degree of training and education and careful attention to debunk it. and then there is the correlation =/= causation thing too as you said.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

I admit that I post like an asshole. I do not lack for self-awareness. You seem to think you are above the fray, and that you are the only virtuous one, while everybody else dives into incivility. When in fact, you were the OVERALL NUMBER 1 SEED in the Worst Poster Tournament.

you do admit this, to your credit.

 

[jhmd2000]

What in the fuck are you talking about?

I admit that I post like an asshole. I do not lack for self-awareness. You seem to think you are above the fray, and that you are the only virtuous one, while everybody else dives into incivility. When in fact, you were the OVERALL NUMBER 1 SEED in the Worst Poster Tournament.

That's a lot of self-hatred trying to get out in a single post. Take it easy man, it's just a message board.

 

[bmoneydeac]

Not sure if I've seen it on this thread or one of the other 29837 that look just like it but people often talk about illegal immigrants and how those jobs wouldn't be taken by Americans. There are a few problems with this. First, those immigrants often come in bunches, living together (in pretty terrible conditions, fwiw) and are able to get some level of economies of scale in their living arrangements, i.e. rent divided by 8 < rent divided by 2 or 3. There are usually some level of tax games being played by the employer and employee which boosts their real take home pay that aren't legal. For those jobs to be meaningful jobs which get people a wage reasonable to live of off, the ag companies would have to boost their payroll greatly which would just mean they'd jack up their prices to offset the additional expense. Right, wrong, or indifferent, our society has demanded cheaper goods over time with companies typically having to adjust their business model to meet those demands. The food industry as a whole is the best example (but you could also substitute textiles, furniture, etc.). By and large, we buy cheap shit and for companies to continue to separate themselves from their competitors, they find ways to make it cheaper and cheaper. This has an effect on the labor market which screws your average dude looking for a job because the floor of labor prices is artificially lowered either buy illegals here or jobs that have been offshored. Great for Americans who shop at WalMart and see their costs drop. However the casualties are the folks that went from making meaningful money to making less than meaningful money and are all the sudden poor and have to rely on government assistance. Nowhere in this transaction is someone lazy. They just got squeezed out.

That's my take anyways. I'd love to figure out the best way to bring data into the argument to go along with my pretty narrative.

 

[BeachBumDeac]

That's a lot of self-hatred trying to get out in a single post. Take it easy man, it's just a message board.

I don't know why you think that is self-hatred. I am the one who knows who I am, and what I post like. And I'm pretty damn happy with it. You are the one who seems to be running from your posts at every turn, instead of being self-reflective and trying to figure out why everybody thinks you are a jackass.

Once again:

 

[jhmd2000]

very true... you can make a graph say anything and it actually can take a degree of training and education and careful attention to debunk it. and then there is the correlation =/= causation thing too as you said.



you do admit this, to your credit.

But it's only a problem when other people do it. Then it is an ENORMOUS PROBLEM of GIGANTIC PROPORTIONS.