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Most Bothersome Wake Forest Development in the last 12 months? Pit/Tunnels Adjace

wfu22fan said:
Just going by my intermediate and high school experience in a NC small town years ago and anecdotal evidence from friends who have recently had kids in high school, there are some incredibly effective teachers, but the majority are incompetent.
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yep. Teachers are incompetent. Good catch
 
I was told I could buy both Tier 2 and Tier 3 condos at Myrtle Beach on this thread. No?
 
PhDeac said:
No I understood that point. But I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I really hoped you were saying don’t add first generation students and using “class sizes” as cover. But I guess I should assume the worst.
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Where have I said anything about first generation students? Don't try to villainize me to hide the fact that you missed the point. It is OK, we all miss the point every once in a while.

My only interest is in maintaining the things that make Wake Forest uniquely Wake Forest - quality teaching from quality professors in small classes, the personal touch, professors that know you, etc.... There is no reason that increasing the focus on helping first generation students or improving the diversity of the student body needs to impact those things. But, if we lose focus on those core values while chasing the rankings, those things could be impacted - and that would be a shame.
 
scooter, again none of things you fear happening would help chase rankings. Your fears are not legitimate.
 
scooter84 said:
My only interest is in maintaining the things that make Wake Forest uniquely Wake Forest - quality teaching from quality professors in small classes, the personal touch, professors that know you, etc.... There is no reason that increasing the focus on helping first generation students or improving the diversity of the student body needs to impact those things. But, if we lose focus on those core values while chasing the rankings, those things could be impacted - and that would be a shame.
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por que no los dos?
 
PhDeac said:
scooter, again none of things you fear happening would help chase rankings. Your fears are not legitimate.
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First of all they weren't originally my fears - I was backing up someone else's point. And B, you are apparently still struggling to understand so I will try to lay it out for you in generic terms.
Certain things about Wake Forest are unique and, to at least most of us, important. Those things used to also contribute to our high ranking. Those things no longer help our ranking but other things do. The fear, as you put it, is that the powers that be could stop focusing on those unique things and, instead, focus on the new things and as a result, the unique things about Wake Forest could be eroded and eventually go away.
No one is saying that focusing on the factors that are now important in the ranking criteria would NECESSARILY impact those unique characteristics about Wake Forest, but it certainly could. It takes resources and money and focus to maintain small class sizes, etc. and if the Board or whomever makes all these relevant decisions were to decide it wasn't worth those resources any more then they could go right out the window - not would, but could.
 
Sorry Scooter, what was considered good in 1985 has not a darn thing to do with what is good now.

Wake Forest is notorious for living in the past. And here we are digging our heels in again while the world leaves us in the dust.
 
donaldross said:
Sorry Scooter, what was considered good in 1985 has not a darn thing to do with what is good now.

Wake Forest is notorious for living in the past. And here we are digging our heels in again while the world leaves us in the dust.
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You used the modifier "considered" before good in relation to 1985, but not before the good now. The fundamental question should be are we chasing what is considered to be good, or are we chasing what is good, though perhaps not considered as such in contemporary times. Dr. Boyle would say the pursuit of good over the pursuit of in vogue considerations of good. Perhaps our view of good will some day be vindicated and rewarded when he are offering a rare opportunity not offered elsewhere?

Ladies and Gentleman of the board, I'm just a Caveman. I fell in some ice and later got thawed out by your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me. Sometimes the boasting of rankings makes me want to get out of my diplomas and throw toilet paper in trees or whatever. Sometimes when I get a DM or like on my comments, I wonder: “Did little demons get inside and type it?” I don’t know! My primitive mind can’t grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know – I'd rather have had the college experience I had Wake than suffer the indignity of going to any variety of trade schools like UNC. Thank you.
 
We should get rid of the med and law schools and see how high we can get on the liberal arts colleges list.
 
PhDeac said:
That argument makes no sense for a variety of reasons. Class sizes aren’t that important for most undergrad classes. There are plenty of ways to increase research productivity without increasing class sizes. Grad student instructors aren’t necessarily worse than professors EXCEPT they have less prestige as researchers.

On the other hand, more students —> larger classes is a logic conclusion.
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I have taken undergraduate and graduate classes at several different universities in all kinds of situations and if you really think that small classes don't improve the student experience and student engagement and that TAs aren't (as a rule) less effective than professors (and I was one) then I don't even know what to tell you.
 
FlaccidDeac said:
We should get rid of the med and law schools and see how high we can get on the liberal arts colleges list.
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We used to be #1 in the south for 10+ straight years on that list, before we jumped to the National Universities list. Some schools on that list have law schools (like Washington and Lee). I wonder how it is determined which list a school is on?
 
scooter84 said:
I have taken undergraduate and graduate classes at several different universities in all kinds of situations and if you really think that small classes don't improve the student experience and student engagement and that TAs aren't (as a rule) less effective than professors (and I was one) then I don't even know what to tell you.
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Dude, how many colleges did you flunk out of ?
 
scooter84 said:
I have taken undergraduate and graduate classes at several different universities in all kinds of situations and if you really think that small classes don't improve the student experience and student engagement and that TAs aren't (as a rule) less effective than professors (and I was one) then I don't even know what to tell you.
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I am a professor. And again, as someone who has evaluated grad students and evaluated faculty, I can tell you grad instructors (which are not the same as TAs) are not automatically less effective than professors. In fact, it's a contradictory argument to say professors who focus on research are less impactful in the classroom then say they're automatically better than grad students.

Small classes are great for some classes like senior seminars or higher-level elective courses where the professor may work directly with students on ongoing projects.

But after taking small classes as a student, taking and TAing for small classes as a grad student, and teaching small and large classes as a professor, small classes are not automatically better. A boring lecture in a small class is the same as a boring lecture in a large class. Class discussions can be interesting, insightful, and intimate in both classes. Students can be anonymous in either format or they can develop a relationship with the professor in either format. The classes I took with 30-35 classmates at Wake are classes I teach with 45-55 students at a much much larger university now. There's not that much difference. Either way, it comes down to how the teacher teaches and how the student learns, particularly whether or not the student takes the time to email the professor, attend office hours, seek help, etc.

By the way, large universities also have small classes. Y'all act like every class is in some massive lecture hall. If I offer an elective course and 15 students sign up for it, I teach 15 students. If 55 sign up for it, I teach 55. Some courses are capped at around 30 students. Some intro courses are in massive lecture hauls with one professor and a bunch of TAs. Others are in small sections. The students can choose which experience they want.
 
Scooter you are right we very much disagree about smaller classes.

I challenge you to go watch a small section at wake forest. No one interacts with the professor during the lecture. Y’all in the 1960s.
 
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