Muslim extremists slaughter at least 2000 people

[knowell]

There are lots of stories about kids being indoctrinated about the glory of martyrdom via suicide bombing. Do a Google search for them. Here's one that speaks to my point.

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/01/suicide-vest-girl-pakistan-boy/356846/

"Afghanistan was stunned this week by the story of a 10-year-old girl known only as Spozhmai, who told police that her brother, a local Taliban commander, gave her a suicide vest and ordered to attack a police station. Police intervened after she resisted the plan and her brother escaped with the vest.

Even more shocking is that the girl says she was told that the vest would only kill her targets, but that she would survive the explosion."

This is so sick. It is beyond comprehension. How anyone can compare this to any other religion in the world in the world is beyond me.

 

[jhmd2000]

My original point, which ONW questioned, was that they sometimes tell the kids they will survive the blast. She was told that. As for indoctrination, simply read the rest of the article.

"The largely illiterate boys are fed a diet of anti-Western and anti-Afghan government propaganda until they are prepared to kill, he said. But the boys are also assured that they will miraculously survive the devastation they cause. "The worst part is that these children don't think that they are killing themselves," said the official. "They are often given an amulet containing Koranic verses. Mullahs tell them, 'When this explodes you will survive and God will help you survive the fire. Only the infidels will be killed, you will be saved and your parents will go to paradise'."

I disagree that that is the worst part.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

My line of thinking is poverty is a big differentiating factor between radical Christians and radical Muslims. It's not hard to convince a ten year old living in abject poverty to join a group of people who will ultimately ask you to blow yourself up if they give you food and shelter first. A little harder to convince middle class white family with fundamentalist views and an American education to go blow themselves up.

I'm pretty sure there are millions and millions of Christians living in uneducated, abject poverty in Central America, South America, Africa, and other parts of the world (including the US) who aren't blowing themselves up in the name of JC. Not to say they aren't drawn into other nefarious lifestyles, but Christianity is usually trying to prevent that, not promote it.

 

[DeaconSig]

I'm pretty sure there are millions and millions of Christians living in uneducated, abject poverty in Central America, South America, Africa, and other parts of the world (including the US) who aren't blowing themselves up in the name of JC. Not to say they aren't drawn into other nefarious lifestyles, but Christianity is usually trying to prevent that, not promote it.

As I think was mentioned before in this thread, there are only a few steps from joining a gang and being willing to kill somebody in a rival gang and joining a terrorist group and being willing to blow yourself up, no?

 

[ONW]

There are lots of stories about kids being indoctrinated about the glory of martyrdom via suicide bombing. Do a Google search for them. Here's one that speaks to my point.

http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/01/suicide-vest-girl-pakistan-boy/356846/

"Afghanistan was stunned this week by the story of a 10-year-old girl known only as Spozhmai, who told police that her brother, a local Taliban commander, gave her a suicide vest and ordered to attack a police station. Police intervened after she resisted the plan and her brother escaped with the vest.

Even more shocking is that the girl says she was told that the vest would only kill her targets, but that she would survive the explosion."

That is seriously f'd up. To send your 10 year old sister on a suicide mission...now considering that acceptable is indoctrination.

 

[Deacon923]

I'm pretty sure there are millions and millions of Christians living in uneducated, abject poverty in Central America, South America, Africa, and other parts of the world (including the US) who aren't blowing themselves up in the name of JC. Not to say they aren't drawn into other nefarious lifestyles, but Christianity is usually trying to prevent that, not promote it.

As I said in the other thread, I don't think that comparing religions and trying to either say "all of Islam is inherently evil" or "look here Christians do/did this stuff too" is at all helpful in formulating a policy response to Islamic jihadi terrorism. That said, in the interest of discussion, have you heard of the "Santa Muerte" narco-trafficking cult that is widespread in Mexico/Central America? It's sort of a mix of Christianity and voodoo and Mesoamerican folklore/day of the dead stuff. Here's a link. I post this not because I think it says much about Islamic terrorism, but it shows an association between criminality, poverty, and religion, and how religion can be used to justify some pretty abhorrent acts especially when the people involved are desperate.

 

[TownieDeac]

As I said in the other thread, I don't think that comparing religions and trying to either say "all of Islam is inherently evil" or "look here Christians do/did this stuff too" is at all helpful in formulating a policy response to Islamic jihadi terrorism. That said, in the interest of discussion, have you heard of the "Santa Muerte" narco-trafficking cult that is widespread in Mexico/Central America? It's sort of a mix of Christianity and voodoo and Mesoamerican folklore/day of the dead stuff. Here's a link. I post this not because I think it says much about Islamic terrorism, but it shows an association between criminality, poverty, and religion, and how religion can be used to justify some pretty abhorrent acts especially when the people involved are desperate.

Another good example (without comparing situations to minimize any one specific religion's role, like some have tried to do comparing historical Christianity to modern Islam) has to be child militias in Africa.

 

[knowell]

As I said in the other thread, I don't think that comparing religions and trying to either say "all of Islam is inherently evil" or "look here Christians do/did this stuff too" is at all helpful in formulating a policy response to Islamic jihadi terrorism. That said, in the interest of discussion, have you heard of the "Santa Muerte" narco-trafficking cult that is widespread in Mexico/Central America? It's sort of a mix of Christianity and voodoo and Mesoamerican folklore/day of the dead stuff. Here's a link. I post this not because I think it says much about Islamic terrorism, but it shows an association between criminality, poverty, and religion, and how religion can be used to justify some pretty abhorrent acts especially when the people involved are desperate.

That is a pretty weird cult/religion, but even so, I don't think they are trying to blow up strangers.

 

[Deacon923]

That is a pretty weird cult/religion, but even so, I don't think they are trying to blow up strangers.

I thought the numerous caveats in my post would be sufficient to stave off this sort of response. I was wrong. Sigh.

The following is not meant to draw direct parallels between Islam and Santa Muerte: This particular cult, which has developed in a very interesting cultural stew of poverty and drug trafficking, has not encouraged suicide bombings but does put some religious justification or trappings around mass shootings, decapitations, drug trafficking itself, etc. etc. My point is simply that I think in certain cultural/socieconomic environments, it is much more likely that a religion will advocate for or be used to justify extreme violence or criminal behavior. The Mafia, for example, has been all tied up with the Catholic Church for over 100 years.

The current situation with some branches of Islam is not really analogous to Santa Muerte or the Mafia. It's just that instead of pointing at what is written in the holy book of the religion, or saying the religion itself is inherently violent, I think we have to look at what is driving these people to use or abuse the religion in the way they do. With Middle Eastern Islam it's a very, very dangerous and potent mix of factors including Wahhabist theology, socioeconomic depression and lack of opportunity, political repression, feeling humiliated by Israel/the West and wanting revenge... it's not good. We are not going to be able to bomb our way to victory over this enemy. It must be done by creating changes in Islamic societies, especially in the middle east over to Pakistan, to the extent we can. Bombing is mostly counterproductive.

I don't know what the heck to do about the mess in Africa, my feeling is that these Boko Haram guys aren't any more Islamic than the Santa Muerte people are Christians. Both are syncretist messes of the "main" religion mixed in with tribal customs and folk magic. The only thing to do there is try and help Nigeria get it's @#$# together so it can go kill those guys. Apparently there aren't that many of them but Nigeria is ridiculously incompetent.

 

[2&2 Slider To Leyritz]

As I think was mentioned before in this thread, there are only a few steps from joining a gang and being willing to kill somebody in a rival gang and joining a terrorist group and being willing to blow yourself up, no?

Oh definitely. But are Christian religions encouraging gang membership? Usually it is the opposite.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

The current situation with some branches of Islam is not really analogous to Santa Muerte or the Mafia. It's just that instead of pointing at what is written in the holy book of the religion, or saying the religion itself is inherently violent, I think we have to look at what is driving these people to use or abuse the religion in the way they do. With Middle Eastern Islam it's a very, very dangerous and potent mix of factors including Wahhabist theology, socioeconomic depression and lack of opportunity, political repression, feeling humiliated by Israel/the West and wanting revenge... it's not good. We are not going to be able to bomb our way to victory over this enemy.

Fantastic post. This is what I was trying to get at earlier by bringing in other factors, well stated (better than I ever could).

 

[ONW]

My opinion on this issue is changing rapidly. These branches of Islam aren't sending 10 year olds in to crowds screaming "we want jobs, and the ability to vote." They're screaming Allah Akbar and killing people. What's motivating that is debatable, but just because your destitute and lack hope doesn't make slaughtering other people justifiable.

 

[Deacon923]

My opinion on this issue is changing rapidly. These branches of Islam aren't sending 10 year olds in to crowds screaming "we want jobs, and the ability to vote." They're screaming Allah Akbar and killing people. What's motivating that is debatable, but just because your destitute and lack hope doesn't make slaughtering other people justifiable.

Certainly not, but if you want to have any hope of changing their behavior you have to look at the underlying factors. Some of those may be in the realm of American influence, many of them may not. Simply relying on military force to try and deal with it has not and never will be the solution. The US has probably created more terrorists than it's killed over the past decade and a half.

 

[BigTreeDeac]

My opinion on this issue is changing rapidly. These branches of Islam aren't sending 10 year olds in to crowds screaming "we want jobs, and the ability to vote." They're screaming Allah Akbar and killing people. What's motivating that is debatable, but just because your destitute and lack hope doesn't make slaughtering other people justifiable.

There is a large gap between "justifiable" and trying to delineate other root causes and deal with them. I'm not really sure what the best solution is but I feel quite confident that trying to eliminate the Islamic theology (whether that theology is being bastardized or not) used to justify the attacks is probably not going to be successful...AT ALL. The reason people are trying to flush out other contributing factors is that those would seem to be better targets for neutering radical Islam. As I said on the other thread, a further progression towards marginalizing Muslims as people, Islam as a faith, and Islamic states as political actors in global politics is only going to harden the religious resolve involved in this not make things better.

 

[ONW]

There is a large gap between "justifiable" and trying to delineate other root causes and deal with them. I'm not really sure what the best solution is but I feel quite confident that trying to eliminate the Islamic theology (whether that theology is being bastardized or not) used to justify the attacks is probably not going to be successful...AT ALL. The reason people are trying to flush out other contributing factors is that those would seem to be better targets for neutering radical Islam. As I said on the other thread, a further progression towards marginalizing Muslims as people, Islam as a faith, and Islamic states as political actors in global politics is only going to harden the religious resolve involved in this not make things better.

Agreed, looking for real solutions is better than just blowing things up, and if one country in the western world has not marginalized people of Islamic faith it's the U.S. At least in this country.

 

[P4nthers11]

Agreed, looking for real solutions is better than just blowing things up, and if one country in the western world has not marginalized people of Islamic faith it's the U.S. At least in this country.

Nope, I have it on good authority from TAB that all Muslims are cavemen who are inherently pre-disposed to violence and any attempt to influence the potent mix of factors referenced by 923 that aid the rise of extremism will be ineffective due to their inherent inferiority.

 

[TownieDeac]

Nope, I have it on good authority from TAB that all Muslims are cavemen who are inherently pre-disposed to violence and any attempt to influence the potent mix of factors referenced by 923 that aid the rise of extremism will be ineffective due to their inherent inferiority.

Any other suggestion is PC, beta, pussy, gay bullshit.

 

[Deacon923]

There is a large gap between "justifiable" and trying to delineate other root causes and deal with them. I'm not really sure what the best solution is but I feel quite confident that trying to eliminate the Islamic theology (whether that theology is being bastardized or not) used to justify the attacks is probably not going to be successful...AT ALL. The reason people are trying to flush out other contributing factors is that those would seem to be better targets for neutering radical Islam. As I said on the other thread, a further progression towards marginalizing Muslims as people, Islam as a faith, and Islamic states as political actors in global politics is only going to harden the religious resolve involved in this not make things better.

Maybe a carrot rather than stick approach. Indonesia for the most part seems like a pretty responsible and diverse majority-Muslim state, that is pro-Western and has a robust democracy (hard to think of many others, sadly). Raise up Indonesia as an example, try to get them more power in the UN, give them defense help, etc. etc. Show the crazies in the Middle East "this is how you can do well by not acting like troglodytes toward your fellow man."

 

[DCDeac]

The KKK was a Christian group. So were the Nazis. Even if the accepted literature of Islam does quite a bit to feed the dreams of the afterlife - often in vivid, borderline absurd detail - I'd bet you could fixate on certain passages in Christianity or many other religions and create a similar mindset. I don't think it makes sense to do what Bill Maher is doing and blame Islam. But the leadership of the Islamic faith in many areas... I mean... At what point do you draw the line and really get outraged regardless of who the target is? It's great that many Muslim nations condemned the attacks, but there are articles from other hugely popular news sources that blamed Charlie Hebdo for "creating an atmosphere of violence" or having a "security failure." Pew research had many Muslim countries supporting justified suicide bombings at 30% (sometimes of often justified) - and higher in many areas.

Indonesia mentioned above was at 9%, Pakistan at 3%. Jordan and Senegal also "low" at 15%. Turkey went from 3% to 18% in just over the last 5 years sadly. Of course Palestinian Muslims have actually come down from 70% to 46% in the same time frame.

If you're one of the millions and millions of modern Muslims out there and you see these numbers, how do you fix it? Clearly not drone strikes.

 

[WFU71]

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missing-nigeria-schoolgirls/boko-haram-appears-be-using-abducted-girls-suicide-bombers-experts-n284456

"It is not clear if the girls were coerced or were even aware they were strapped with explosives, which may have been detonated remotely. But experts say that Boko Haram appears to be using the children it kidnaps — such as the 276 Chibok girls who sparked the #BringBackOurGirls social media campaign — and using them as a readily available supply of suicide bombers."