Now her story has changed. Alleged sexual assault thread.

[MBDeac08]

There have been mixed messages about whether this occurred the night before or the night after the Cleveland State game. ESPN story clearly states it was "only hours before", i.e. 3 or 4 AM on the night before/day of the game. According to the story, the players were supposed to have a 5:30 AM wakeup call. So I guess Teague and Clark got about 1 hour of sleep the night before they were supposed to start a deep run into the NCAA tourney.

Wonder if the rest of the team was up soliciting sex in the wee hours of the morning before getting their ass handed to them by Cleveland freakin' State, or just our key point guard.

Don't know what time this happened, but we (the band/cheerleaders) were on the bus headed to the airport at about 7 in the morning. I think we got back to the hotel after the game around 1. Don't know when the players would have gotten back from the game, though the arena wasn't far from the hotel, probably 10 minute walk.

IMO, Wake is going to come out of this looking pretty good. Well, maybe not good per se, but this will not linger like the Duke case did.

 

[DeacdeTejas]

i think i'm failing to see where gary acted like a thug in this situation (assuming, of course, that the article that explains the police report is accurate). i mean, yes, it is disrespectful for a guy to be told "no" and yet ask again. but, like awakegirl said, basically every guy will try multiple times, and you just have to be stern and get yourself out of the situation. i mean, i went out of my way to thank a guy one time because he stopped the very first time i said "no." that had never happened to me before. guys are ridiculously persistent.

maybe i'm just seriously lacking compassion. or maybe there's more to the story (like teague was holding the door shut or something). but if she just lacked the courage to say "no" a second time, then i really find it hard to understand how she thought it was alright to call it rape.

I completely agree with your point, but I also think there is extra pressure/fear when it is an athlete.

She put herself in a bad situation and should have gotten herself out of a bad situation, but that doesnt mean that there was not an added level of pressure, fear, or felling like she had to do something to get herself out of the bathroom

 

[WhatUTalkinBout Willis]

i think i'm failing to see where gary acted like a thug in this situation (assuming, of course, that the article that explains the police report is accurate). i mean, yes, it is disrespectful for a guy to be told "no" and yet ask again. but, like awakegirl said, basically every guy will try multiple times, and you just have to be stern and get yourself out of the situation. i mean, i went out of my way to thank a guy one time because he stopped the very first time i said "no." that had never happened to me before. guys are ridiculously persistent.

maybe i'm just seriously lacking compassion. or maybe there's more to the story (like teague was holding the door shut or something). but if she just lacked the courage to say "no" a second time, then i really find it hard to understand how she thought it was alright to call it rape.

Good point. Thug definitely has a variable definition.

No means no though, right? Especially in sexual situations, even more especially when you're not in a relationship/this is someone you are being intimate with for the first time.

I myself have a hard time with the whole "I said no, but then I did it because I felt pressured." I would like to hear her definition of feeling pressured here. Did she thing Gary was going to physically force her? Did she think he would hit her? Did she make ANY sort of attempt to leave? Saying no once should be enough, but whatever happened between then and the BJ tells the story.

I should also go ahead and say I have never been pressured into anything sexually, so I'm definitely just shooting from the hip.

 

[Skydog Deac]

I don't know if that is absolutely true. If she felt forced to preform oral sex that would be categorized as rape...right?

I am by no means saying that is what happened but even with what limited knowledge we have we can not say that a rape did not occur. And we certainly can't say that a rape did occur.

Also...I love Andy Katz.

I would think that would be more under the sexual assault umbrella, but I don't know why I'm speculating since I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[DeacHoops]

Good point. Thug definitely has a variable definition.

No means no though, right? Especially in sexual situations, even more especially when you're not in a relationship/this is someone you are being intimate with for the first time.

I myself have a hard time with the whole "I said no, but then I did it because I felt pressured." I would like to hear her definition of feeling pressured here. Did she thing Gary was going to physically force her? Did she think he would hit her? Did she make ANY sort of attempt to leave? Saying no once should be enough, but whatever happened between then and the BJ tells the story.

I should also go ahead and say I have never been pressured into anything sexually, so I'm definitely just shooting from the hip.

in theory, yes. but i honestly challenge you to find a guy who doesn't give it a second shot after the first "no."

and tejas, i get your point about it being an athlete, but i disagree that it completely changes things. i said "no" multiple times to athletes at wake. and while one of them wasn't a super big guy, he was definitely strong. and the other one was a very big guy. but if you stand strong and don't give in, these guys aren't actually rapists. they're just guys who think that girls want them (right or wrong). once you make it clear that you don't want them, they back down.

 

[TripleDeacon]

I don't know if that is absolutely true. If she felt forced to preform oral sex that would be categorized as rape...right?

I am by no means saying that is what happened but even with what limited knowledge we have we can not say that a rape did not occur. And we certainly can't say that a rape did occur.

Also...I love Andy Katz.

I'm not familiar with Florida law, but after a quick review of the NC statute in NC "rape" as a criminal offense must generally include some type of force and be against the will of the victim. Even sexual offense and sexual battery, lesser offenses, must include those two elements. I can't recall whether that is the prevailing view or not on a national basis. It would seem dangerous to me to have a crime where the offense is determined solely as to the subjective view of the victim without any objective criteria.

 

[cville deac]

Connor, I agree as to the poor judgment by all 3 kids involved. Hardly surprising, though, at that age, and this happens all the time.

DV7, I agree with others that Keeper shouldn't be banned. I really think that's what he's been trying to do. You got banned on DS, and I believe he's just being as obnoxious as possible to try to get banned on your board.

I agree with some others that the mom is really starting to irritate me. Her letter contains what are likely several factual inaccuracies. But that's hardly surprising. Seems like this young woman ended up suffering some psychological damage from this incident. This type of conduct goes on all the time on and off college campuses, and most women aren't going to be psychologically scarred like this woman apparently was. But she was. And when their kids are hurt, parents can lose all objectivity. I have an aunt who has always been a little nutty, but she became completely effin whacked when my cousin died at age 14. And in Cville, there was a high profile homicide a couple years ago where the mom went completely nuts and has been extremely denigrating toward Cville, area cops and the press. And that animosity is completely unjustified when one rationally considers that a ton of volunteers joined the search for the body, the cops put in a lot of OT and did things for the family that they wouldn't have done in a typical case, and the press has only alluded to some of the victims questionable behavior. Parents can just lose objectivity.

That said, if this young woman and her mother sue Wake, I hope we defend the suit aggressively, don't settle, go to trial and ask for sanctions if warranted. Just because you don't like the result of a criminal or other investigation, doesn't give you a cause of action to sue.

 

[ONW]

No WFU alum with any sense should have been handing out bj's to any player on that team after that game.

 

[DeacdeTejas]

in theory, yes. but i honestly challenge you to find a guy who doesn't give it a second shot after the first "no."

and tejas, i get your point about it being an athlete, but i disagree that it completely changes things. i said "no" multiple times to athletes at wake. and while one of them wasn't a super big guy, he was definitely strong. and the other one was a very big guy. but if you stand strong and don't give in, these guys aren't actually rapists. they're just guys who think that girls want them (right or wrong). once you make it clear that you don't want them, they back down.

Again I agree with you but I would also say that because I know you I think that you are stronger and wiser than a lot of other girls.

All I am trying to say that in this specific situation, the alleged victim could have felt like she had no way out even if she actually did. Her perception is what matters in the situation and on the Today Show tomorrow. Right or wrong it is what she felt then and how she feels about it now that matters

 

[GreenDeac]

Connor, I agree as to the poor judgment by all 3 kids involved. Hardly surprising, though, at that age, and this happens all the time.

DV7, I agree with others that Keeper shouldn't be banned. I really think that's what he's been trying to do. You got banned on DS, and I believe he's just being as obnoxious as possible to try to get banned on your board.

I agree with some others that the mom is really starting to irritate me. Her letter contains what are likely several factual inaccuracies. But that's hardly surprising. Seems like this young woman ended up suffering some psychological damage from this incident. This type of conduct goes on all the time on and off college campuses, and most women aren't going to be psychologically scarred like this woman apparently was. But she was. And when their kids are hurt, parents can lose all objectivity. I have an aunt who has always been a little nutty, but she became completely effin whacked when my cousin died at age 14. And in Cville, there was a high profile homicide a couple years ago where the mom went completely nuts and has been extremely denigrating toward Cville, area cops and the press. And that animosity is completely unjustified when one rationally considers that a ton of volunteers joined the search for the body, the cops put in a lot of OT and did things for the family that they wouldn't have done in a typical case, and the press has only alluded to some of the victims questionable behavior. Parents can just lose objectivity.

That said, if this young woman and her mother sue Wake, I hope we defend the suit aggressively, don't settle, go to trial and ask for sanctions if warranted. Just because you don't like the result of a criminal or other investigation, doesn't give you a cause of action to sue.

Uh, what? You don't think rape or sexual assault causes psychological damage to victims?

Not making a judgement about what did or did not happen in this case, just strongly questioning your understanding of the impact of rape or sexual assault.

 

[IamThunderbolt]

in theory, yes. but i honestly challenge you to find a guy who doesn't give it a second shot after the first "no."

and tejas, i get your point about it being an athlete, but i disagree that it completely changes things. i said "no" multiple times to athletes at wake. and while one of them wasn't a super big guy, he was definitely strong. and the other one was a very big guy. but if you stand strong and don't give in, these guys aren't actually rapists. they're just guys who think that girls want them (right or wrong). once you make it clear that you don't want them, they back down.

I get that - but you seems to be a pretty self-assured and confident person. You may not feel the same pressure that another might. As was noted about 7-8 pages back, it seems like a situation where Gary thought the situation was normal and the girl felt pressured. I think what awakegirl posted about the situation is probably pretty close to what happened. In the end, no matter how many bad/naive decisions the girl may have made, she should always have the option (real or perceived) to walk away and say no. In this situation, would Gary be convicted of sexual assault - no (and he hasn't been), but that wouldn't make the trauma of the girl any less, or make the actions of Gary any more acceptable.

 

[DaDeacs]

Again I agree with you but I would also say that because I know you I think that you are stronger and wiser than a lot of other girls.

All I am trying to say that in this specific situation, the alleged victim could have felt like she had no way out even if she actually did. Her perception is what matters in the situation and on the Today Show tomorrow. Right or wrong it is what she felt then and how she feels about it now that matters

100% agree. From a personal perspective, it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as I thought, looks like WFU handled it properly and everything was done in accordance with the law. But, clearly this is something that has deeply affected the girl. I just hope this is not the mother/ncava pushing an agenda and getting the girl to do something she may not want to do. (I may be an asshole for suggesting that, though).

 

[BeachBumDeac]

Her perception is what matters in the situation and on the Today Show tomorrow. Right or wrong it is what she felt then and how she feels about it now that matters

that's a dangerous road to go down, IMO. A perception of coercion is not the same thing as actual coercion, and guys with good (or just normal horny) intentions could be falsely branded as rapists or assaulters. Check out the washington post link I posted earlier in the thread to see what a false allegation of rape can do to someone's life

 

[MBDeac08]

Two things:

1) I feel like BabyDeac (who is clearly connected in some way to the team) was trying to tell us all along that things were not as bad as they seemed without actually saying it.

2) I don't think Pat Kelsey's sudden retirement has much to do with this. There just doesn't seem to be any real connection, as some speculated earlier.

 

[DeacHoops]

Again I agree with you but I would also say that because I know you I think that you are stronger and wiser than a lot of other girls.

All I am trying to say that in this specific situation, the alleged victim could have felt like she had no way out even if she actually did. Her perception is what matters in the situation and on the Today Show tomorrow. Right or wrong it is what she felt then and how she feels about it now that matters

agree to disagree then. i guess i just feel that a person's lack of courage should not cause legal problems for somebody else.

i would also disagree with the bolded part. yes, how she felt about it THEN definitely matters. but i don't think how she feels about it now should matter (in a legal sense). plenty of girls wake up the next morning with regrets. but those regrets can't be taken into consideration the morning after if they weren't expressed the night of (except, obviously, for when you can't legally consent...like if you're drunk).

 

[TARDAWG]

I am slightly confused. What is her interview going to be other than her side of the story? From the article linked earlier in the thread it sounds as though it was reported to the WFU Police, the Miami police, and investigated by both. So is the girl going to share some new evidence? or is she just there to claim that athletes get treated special? I can promise you, and please do not take offense to this, but the Miami police department could give less than a crap about a Wake Forest basketball player. If they felt there was a crime committed, they would have loved to press charges.

My guess is that they felt that a girl who discussed oral sex in a hallway with two men she was not in a relationship with, but then decided to go with them into their Hotel room in the wee hours of the night, just does not have the best credibility. I imagine there was some heavy alcohol involved and her recollection of the story was a little fuzzy. I realize “no" means “no", but I think the police also have to use their judgement if “no” was actually ever stated.

 

[wake20]

Not that it matters much, but were there any black band members? I'm assuming we all think she's white, right?

 

[IamThunderbolt]

that's a dangerous road to go down, IMO. A perception of coercion is not the same thing as actual coercion, and guys with good (or just normal horny) intentions could be falsely branded as rapists or assaulters. Check out the washington post link I posted earlier in the thread to see what a false allegation of rape can do to someone's life

This is true and part of the nature of why sexual assault cases are so tricky and not a lot of them actually make it to court. I'm hoping that this segment will encourage women to make good decisions and look out for each other and give them the courage/support to step forward immediately if something does happen. And also give guys a reason to pause and think about the people involved in their quest of slaying hoodrats.

 

[DDeac08]

Not that it matters much, but were there any black band members? I'm assuming we all think she's white, right?

She is white.

 

[cookoutdeac]

Two things:

1) I feel like BabyDeac (who is clearly connected in some way to the team) was trying to tell us all along that things were not as bad as they seemed without actually saying it.

2) I don't think Pat Kelsey's sudden retirement has much to do with this. There just doesn't seem to be any real connection, as some speculated earlier.

Hehe, well now that we've heard a lot more of the story the connection is certainly a lot more shaky. It probably has more to do with the rumors about Xavier's recruiting issues/violations.