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Obama to issue work permits to undocumented workers?

Deacon923 said:
Can you imagine how crazy the far right would be about immigration if we had black people from Africa and Middle Eastern Muslims coming here on boats like they do in Europe? They'd be demanding drone strikes and destroyers off the coast to exterminate those threats to security before they could contaminate our coast line. Our immigration issues are a joke compared to what Italy and Spain have to deal with, and we still can't get our act together enough to take care of a few thousand desperate kids fleeing the violence that our drug habit and drug war have caused.
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Ahhh. The old racist card. Well played 923. Republicans hate brown people is a great party line.
 
Wrangor said:
What jobs? If the jobs aren't there now they will be replacing people and thus putting more people out of work. You act like just because we have never had an open border that the results aren't predictable. I have never lot my hair (what little I have) on fire but I am pretty certain I can deduce what will happen.

We already don't have enough jobs. You are suggesting we raise wages (which will reduce jobs) and bring in more job seekers. This doesn't take a case study to predict the result. Simple economics works just fine. Less demand (increased wage will reduce jobs) and more supply. The increase supply of labor will have to be provided for by an outside force, the government. Perhaps that is what you are aiming for. I am not sure, but the outcome of your proposal is very predictable.
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That's certainly possible, but you are missing part of the equation. Population growth - through immigration or otherwise - increases demand for goods and services. Increase in demand for goods and services increases production and employment. The types of folks who come across the border are frequently entrepreneurial and start small businesses that create jobs. There's a lot more to this than the simple analysis you set up here. Economists a lot smarter than me or you argue about this stuff all the time, but on net America is growing, while economies in Japan and Europe are stagnant or shrinking, partially because of immigration.

Wrangor said:
Ahhh. The old racist card. Well played 923. Republicans hate brown people is a great party line.
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I didn't say "Republicans". Projecting much?

Anybody who denies that the right's position on immigration is partially fueled by racism and xenophobia has their eyes wide shut. The business side of the Republican party is for more immigration, so they can hire cheap and effective labor. The redneck side of whatever party? Not so much, and the reason isn't because of their deep understanding of macroeconomics.
 
Thank you 923 this was stated two pages ago i believe.

If I recall from history classes 25 years (or so) ago, opponents of immigration have cried out like Wrangor for centuries and their fears have never come true - America has only gotten stronger and more productive.
 
WakeandBake said:
Thank you 923 this was stated two pages ago i believe.

If I recall from history classes 25 years (or so) ago, opponents of immigration have cried out like Wrangor for centuries and their fears have never come true - America has only gotten stronger and more productive.
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And we have never opened the borders. Thus we probably should continue our cautious but steady approach to immigration. I don't want to shut down immigration. But open borders combined with raising the minimum wage is a disastrous idea.
 
Wrangor said:
And we have never opened the borders. Thus we probably should continue our cautious but steady approach to immigration. I don't want to shut down immigration. But open borders combined with raising the minimum wage is a disastrous idea.
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Nobody suggested opening the borders, I suggested an orderly documentation of all immigrant workers to eliminate undocumented worker problems, along with harsh penalties for employing illegal immigrants illegally. I appreciate your hyperbole though, its cute.

The minimum wage, while a separate issue, should absolutely be raised regardless of what happens at the border, everyone knows that.

The Henny Penny hand-wringing from the 'business community' and their shills is just that, a plea to keep labor costs artificially low. Check today's minimum wage against the minimum wage during the economic expansions of the 20th century and compare. It is ridiculously low now and is probably more of a contributing factor in our slow recovery than the perceived drag would be from raising it -your religious fellation of supply-side trickle down nonsense notwithstanding.
 
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Deacon923 said:
That's certainly possible, but you are missing part of the equation. Population growth - through immigration or otherwise - increases demand for goods and services. Increase in demand for goods and services increases production and employment. The types of folks who come across the border are frequently entrepreneurial and start small businesses that create jobs. There's a lot more to this than the simple analysis you set up here. Economists a lot smarter than me or you argue about this stuff all the time, but on net America is growing, while economies in Japan and Europe are stagnant or shrinking, partially because of immigration.



I didn't say "Republicans". Projecting much?

Anybody who denies that the right's position on immigration is partially fueled by racism and xenophobia has their eyes wide shut. The business side of the Republican party is for more immigration, so they can hire cheap and effective labor. The redneck side of whatever party? Not so much, and the reason isn't because of their deep understanding of macroeconomics.
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See dot com's chart above and tell me how an influx of unskilled laborers is going to increase demand for unskilled labor. We aren't talking about generalized population growth spread out across all spectrums of society. We are talking about the disproportionate growth of unskilled laborers.
 
WakeandBake said:
Nobody suggested opening the borders, I suggested an orderly documentation of all immigrant workers to eliminate undocumented worker problems, along with harsh penalties for employing illegal immigrants illegally. I appreciate your hyperbole though, its cute.

The minimum wage, while a separate issue, should absolutely be raised regardless of what happens at the border, everyone knows that.

The Henny Penny hand-wringing from the 'business community' and their shills is just that, a plea to keep labor costs artificially low. Check today's minimum wage against the minimum wage during the economic expansions of the 20th century and compare. It is ridiculously low now and is probably more of a contributing factor in our slow recovery than the perceived drag would be from raising it -your religious fellation of supply-side trickle down nonsense notwithstanding.
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Please continue to contradict yourself. I'll let you have this argument. You just made two totally opposite assertions from your previous position. Good luck sir.
 
Wrangor you are right. I slipped temporarily into my old ways. The border needs to be locked down and if it takes the military to enforce it, so be it. This is our country and we cannot reward lawlessness.
 
WakeandBake said:
Wrangor you are right. I slipped temporarily into my old ways. The border needs to be locked down and if it takes the military to enforce it, so be it. This is our country and we cannot reward lawlessness.
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The first step to recovery is realizing you have no control over your addiction.
 
Also, the minimum wage should remain the same or, at best, be eliminated altogether. It has done nothing but artificially increase prices and disrupt the free market.
 
WakeandBake said:
I didn't say anarchy, i said orderly documentation of all workers.

You talked yourself right out of the security point you were trying to make a few posts ago.

I don;t understand your point about wages at all. Employers do that no matter what.
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You said to let them all in and document them. Giving them all a work permit doesn't make it less anarchic. You're letting everybody in willy-nilly.

I didn't really. I was being realistic about security. Just because you don't think a hole will be exploited for one particular thing doesn't mean you fail to fix it. Enforcement and the appearance of enforcement are all part of the same game, anyway. The lack of enforcement by this administration (DACA, dismissing cases, neutering BP, etc) coupled by the appearance of lack of enforcement (talk of amnesty) are certainly part of the same game, even if you don't agree with my criticisms.

Employers do that to an extent, but less so if the market is less saturated with immigrants who take less money.
 
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