How are you a thief if what you are doing adds to a person's well being? If Jose is using Bill"s SS#, Bill gets more SS when he retires? If the number is fraudulent, the federal government profits by not having to pay benefits to the fake number.
Obama to issue work permits to undocumented workers?
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How are you a thief if what you are doing adds to a person's well being? If Jose is using Bill"s SS#, Bill gets more SS when he retires? If the number is fraudulent, the federal government profits by not having to pay benefits to the fake number.
Plenty of people go on to be lucratively successful going to a school that cost ~20k a year. Your kids will have more than a "chance" if they have any type of work ethic.
EatLeadCommie
Tommy Elrod
They should be fined big time and are when they are caught. It is tougher to get away with that these days when they have the ability to verify the status of an employee. It isn't like it was 20 years ago, when the Pappas (Pappadeux, etc) chain got busted big time.
WakeandBake
Well-known member
Do you think if the onus was on busting employers resulting in the market for illegal labor largely drying up, that the illegal immigration issue would dry up with it?
EatLeadCommie
Tommy Elrod
No, but it is part of the larger battle plan. You go after the employers and you go after the individuals here illegally. But the market will never dry up because Jose can come here illegally and self employ by cutting lawns and doing odd jobs. There is always a demand for that, and the individuals who pay for those services are happy to pay somebody the least amount of money possible to get the job done.
WakeandBake
Well-known member
If they do they are criminals and frauds. You make the penalty for hiring an illegal to cut your grass $5000 and a week in jail and nobody will.
Its the same logic as the drug war. Just make the whole thing legal, let them all in but document them and sign them up, and that is the best we can do. The dollar makes the decision for you. You can't fight it.
Deacon923
Scooter Banks
That used to be the conservative position on immigration. Seriously. Pre-WWII, it was labor unions and liberals who were anti-immigration. The libertarian position is still pro-immigration. On net, immigration makes our country stronger. Only the most determined and fit Guatemalans are riding the "Death Train" and sneaking through the desert, just like 120 years ago only the most determined and fit Irish, Italians, and Germans were crossing the ocean with nothing in their pockets. In a country like ours that is geographically isolated and hard to reach, a generous immigration policy enables us to basically skim the cream of the crop from the rest of the world. This is especially so because our social safety nets are skimpy, compared to Europe, and designed to exclude immigrants, so they cost us relatively little for the work ethic and human capital they bring to the table.
Some of us who claim to be conservative are still pro immigration.
WakeandBake
Well-known member
oh business is pro-immigration all the way, the evidence is very clear, jut not pro-LEGAL-immigration. Cheap labor to exploit is as American as apple pie, we've always had it and loved it. But we can't pass immigration reform and make these people legal, cause then we'd have to pay taxes on them and shit. Stall the legislation and exploit the labor and distract the voters. This shit is easy
FuckmouthedRube
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The first time I heard Obama called a Commie/Marxist/Socialist was in early 2009. Obama spent 4 hours in New Orleans visiting Katrina victims on the way out to a $30K+/plate fundraiser in San Francisco. Comrade Obama had no problem mixing it up with Silicon Valley CEOS and they gladly voted for him. Can't quite figure out the Tea Party's view on business. They don't like Silicon Valley, Wall Street, or industries that exploit the availability of cheap illegal labor. They also don't like Chamber of Commerce types who oppose policies which discriminate against gays. Seems like the only port in the storm for the Tea Party is mom and pop small businesses that will never be able to compete economically or legislatively with deep pocketed big business.
Wrangor
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Non sequitur. Has zero to do with this conversation.
There is a great conversation to be had on that topic and my guess is that you and I would agree, but the idea that we are not being 'fair' to illegal immigrants is pretty silly.
WakeandBake
Well-known member
I respectively disagree. It has everything to do with the conversation. It is the reason for the immigration problem. They arent coming here for religious freedom or liberty or any if that flibertygibbet, they are here for the dollars. To crack down on their crime whilst ignoring the other crimes in the process is criminal itself and morally repugnant.
WakeandBake
Well-known member
You're crazy, but I'm not saying crack down on one and not the other. I'm saying end the shit show by legalizing all of it....
Wait, ah shit, Im a conservative now. Damn, this is hard. You're right - prosecute the poor immigrants and leave us job creators alone we are only trying to feed our families.
Wait, ah shit, Im a conservative now. Damn, this is hard. You're right - prosecute the poor immigrants and leave us job creators alone we are only trying to feed our families.
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OK RULZ or tjmd....why do you feel the need to bring me into things when I'm not involved.
It's classless.
My bad it's my fault that you want to be an ass.
Wrangor
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Haha. Legalize all illegal immigration. Brilliant. Next thing you know you will be trading in the Shaggin Wagon for a motor scooter because it gets 70 miles to the gallon.
Wrangor
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Calm down. You often equate disagreement to immorality, and that usually turns discussions into arguments. People rarely choose a position bc they believe it to be immoral. Take abortion/homosexuality/etc.... Me arguing that you are immoral because you disagree with me is pointless. It does nothing to advance to discussion. Calling you a baby killer because you are pro-choice is where a meaningful discussion ends and a pissing contest begins. Labeling people with whom you disagree with is an intrinsic quality to many of your posts. You even labeled me an ass in the post where you attempted to defend yourself, which is quite telling. Lay off the name calling and labeling, and people might not be so apt to call you out for it.
WakeandBake
Well-known member
Wrangor, grow a thicker skin my dear friend.
We have what is deemed a crisis now on our Southern border. A glut of opportunity awaits these people when they cross the border in the form of manual labor jobs that pay far more than they can make back home. In times of desperation, as a last resort, these people break immigration laws to advance their own survival and the survival of their children.
On the other side of the border waiting for these poor souls are people who are surviving quite well, comparatively, and enjoying the fruits of living in an advanced economy. They wish to increase profits and build wealth, and they are willing to break laws to edge out their competition and increase their profits.
This symbiotic relationship is the heart of the matter.
To punish the first group by incarcerating them or sending them back to life of despair while merely slapping the wrist of the profit-seeker is, IMO, morally repugnant. How do you not see that, and see it as name-calling?
We have what is deemed a crisis now on our Southern border. A glut of opportunity awaits these people when they cross the border in the form of manual labor jobs that pay far more than they can make back home. In times of desperation, as a last resort, these people break immigration laws to advance their own survival and the survival of their children.
On the other side of the border waiting for these poor souls are people who are surviving quite well, comparatively, and enjoying the fruits of living in an advanced economy. They wish to increase profits and build wealth, and they are willing to break laws to edge out their competition and increase their profits.
This symbiotic relationship is the heart of the matter.
To punish the first group by incarcerating them or sending them back to life of despair while merely slapping the wrist of the profit-seeker is, IMO, morally repugnant. How do you not see that, and see it as name-calling?
Wrangor
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It is never morally repugnant to punish a crime. So I disagree completely. Should we punish both? Yes. You claimed we should punish neither which is silly.
Grow thicker skin? Not sure what you are talking about. Just responding to the discussion. You say that it is immoral to only punish one of the two wrongs and your solution is to let everyone off. That is a poor solution in my opinion.
Grow thicker skin? Not sure what you are talking about. Just responding to the discussion. You say that it is immoral to only punish one of the two wrongs and your solution is to let everyone off. That is a poor solution in my opinion.