Obama's plan to reduce gun violence

[P4nthers11]

Let's say we have two guns. 6 bullets each (revolvers). By the time any reloading is needed, the adults are dead. Even with one gun that is the case. The larger point is that those kids were sitting ducks. They were all in that room, easy to control, and the adults that were in that room were way too busy protecting those kids to play hero.

Nobody was "spraying bullets" in any case. Nobody had a machine gun.

I think it is easy to nitpick when we are looking at one discrete incident. Considered as a whole I would say with the utmost confidence that given your scenario of two revolvers with 6 bullets each that needed to be reloaded versus the guns that were used in VT shooting, CO shooting, and the CT shooting that the number of deaths would have been much lower.

 

[dmcheatw]

ELC --your using a contrived hypothetical scenario (in the details at least) to make the argument that the frequency and length of reloading has no bearing on death totals.

and you don't need a "machine" gun to spray bullets, you can spray bullets with any semi-auto action, some of which you can fire faster than full-autos. besides, if you're being shot at I imagine the dirt kicking up, the cracking, whipping, and zinging sounds... your rate of fire might be 10 rounds/minute but it would feel like your spraying them.

 

[leftcoastdeac]

ELC man this just isn't your issue. you're a good conservative poster, but just stop man--your using a contrived hypothetical scenario (in the details at least) to make the argument that the frequency and length of reloading has no bearing on death totals.

and you don't need a "machine" gun to spray bullets, you can spray bullets with any semi-auto action, some of which you can fire faster than full-autos, you're limited only by your own finger. besides, if you're being shot at I imagine the dirt kicking up, the cracking, whipping, and zinging sounds... your rate of fire might be 10 rounds/minute but it would feel like your spraying them.

Like which ones?

 

[dmcheatw]

you really want me to do the research? i know they exist... the word "automatic" simply means 1 trigger pull will empty all the rounds in the clip/magazine. strictly speaking, automatic has no bearing on RoF, it's just that people think it does cause thr vast majority of the time a given firearm's mechanism works much much faster than a human finger.

you know I was raised conservative, when i'm talking about guns i have more than just intellectual understanding.

i dont feel like looking it up, just go ask elkman, whether u agree with his politics or not he clearly knows his shit about guns.

 

[leftcoastdeac]

you really want me to do the research? i know they exist... the word "automatic" simply means 1 trigger pull will empty all the rounds in the clip/magazine. strictly speaking, automatic has no bearing on RoF, it's just that people think it does cause thr vast majority of the time a given firearm's mechanism works faster than a human finger.

you know I was raised conservative, when i'm talking about guns i have more than just intellectual understanding.

i dont feel like looking it up, just go ask elkman, whether u agree with his politics or not he clearly knows his shit about guns.

Why should I ask elkman? You made the point that there are semi-autos that can be fired faster than some fully automatic weapons. How are you qualifying that statement?

 

[SkyDivingDeacon]

My problem with limiting magazines is it does nothing to keep things like this or this or auto-load bandoliers out of the hands of the crazies. And clearly it didn't help in Newtown since there was already a 10 + 1 capacity law in place there.

I think the key is getting all of the different data systems on the same playing field as the NICS is a joke. A complete and utter joke.

I'm glad he and others came up with/announced something, but at the end of the day, it sounds like a bunch of feel good nonsense without a lot of substantive impact. Just my humble opinion as nobody really knows what the outcome will be until everything has had time to come online.

 

[dmcheatw]

Why should I ask elkman? You made the point that there are semi-autos that can be fired faster than some fully automatic weapons. How are you qualifying that statement?

google "can semiautomatics fire faster than automatics"

note the first result and the sixth result ("Can A Semi-Auto Rifle Be Fired Faster Than A Full ...‎") among others.

they do it using the foregrip and the gun's recoil to equal full auto speed in rifles of the same make and model. also, some semi-automatic rifles can fire faster than automatic rifles, even though they are technically semi-automatic, due to design. thus for practical purposes, the distinction between the two actions is negligible. And both can burst fire, despite the typical connotations of the word being associated with automatic weapons.

 

[leftcoastdeac]

google "can semiautomatics fire faster than automatics"

note the first result and the sixth result ("Can A Semi-Auto Rifle Be Fired Faster Than A Full ...‎") among others.

they do it using the foregrip and the gun's recoil to equal full auto speed in rifles of the same make and model. also, some semi-automatic rifles can fire faster than automatic rifles, even though they are technically semi-automatic, due to design. thus for practical purposes, the distinction between the two actions is negligible. And both can burst fire, despite the typical connotations of the word being associated with automatic weapons.

Using bump firing to make your point is extremely disingenuous; I can't believe I let myself get sucked into this argument over something as obscure as bump firing to try to beat the cyclic rate of an automatic weapon.

 

[dmcheatw]

Using bump firing to make your point is extremely disingenuous; I can't believe I let myself get sucked into this argument over something as obscure as bump firing to try to beat the cyclic rate of an automatic weapon.

how is it disingenuous? What I wrote was true., and the larger point holds as well: it's not just capacity, it's barrel length, trigger weight, and ACTION type that need to be looked into as well to reduce the mass-murder capability of guns. With regard to the action of the weapon, (in a void, meaning not counting if the automatic had a 100 round drum magazine or something) I don't see much distinction between full auto and semi-auto in terms of mass murder potential.

 

[leftcoastdeac]

how is it disingenuous? What I wrote was true.

Because bump firing is a highly inaccurate, obscure way to fire a weapon that requires modification, or an extreme amount of practice to execute properly.

 

[dmcheatw]

Because bump firing is a highly inaccurate, obscure way to fire a weapon that requires modification, or an extreme amount of practice to execute properly.

all automatic firing is inaccurate, it only has very limited uses no matter how it's done (which is kind of my point--semiauto actions are barely safer than full autos). I dont even know if m16s can fire on full auto anymore it's so useless, they probably just let the saw do that sort of stuff.

just because something is obscure to you doesn't make it obscure to gangsters and rednecks and ex-armed services. i knew about it and i'm hardly a gun nut, or any one of the aforementioned categories. see the edit in the post above btw if you care to address that.

and lastly, it looks like it's quite easy to do: http://www.wikihow.com/Bump-Fire

 

[dmcheatw]

if you think it's obscure type bump fire into youtube and you'll see dozens of videos of bump firing all sorts of semi-autos, and there are millions of views of these videos in sum. "bump fire" search on google returns 42,000,000 results.

 

[leftcoastdeac]

all automatic firing is inaccurate, it only has very limited uses. I dont even know if m16s can fire on full auto anymore.

just because something is obscure to you doesn't make it obscure to gangsters and rednecks and ex-armed services. i knew about it and i'm hardly a gun nut. see the edit btw if you care to address that.

M16s haven't had full auto in years. Semi or burst.

I'm familiar with bump-firing too; had you just said that outright I would have known exactly what you meant.

 

[leftcoastdeac]

if you think it's obscure type bump fire into youtube and you'll see dozens of videos of bump firing all sorts of semi-autos, and there are millions of views of these videos in sum. "bump fire" search on google returns 42,000,000 results.

obscure my ass.

Do you realize that commercial nail guns can be "bump fired?" Some of your 42,000,000 results are undoubtedly related to power tools.

Can you point me to any indication of bump firing being used in the commission of a crime or mass shooting?

I'm a pretty active shooter, and spend a lot of time around people that spend a lot of time with guns, and never once have we ever engaged in bump firing. The number of rednecks and preppers bump firing is miniscule compared to the larger shooting community.

 

[dmcheatw]

Do you realize that commercial nail guns can be "bump fired?" Probably not. Some of your 42,000,000 results are undoubtedly related to power tools, but thanks for pulling that stat for me.

yes but that coupled with the millions of youtube video views of it sorta calls into question your assertion that it's obscure

Can you point me to any indication of bump firing being used in the commission of a crime or mass shooting?

no, currently it's easier just to mod the existing a semi auto rifle to full auto with tools you can get at gun shows and the internet.

I'm a pretty active shooter, and spend a lot of time around people that spend a lot of time with guns, and never once have we ever engaged in bump firing. The number of rednecks and preppers bump firing is miniscule compared to the larger shooting community.

so?

i need to go take some downers before you really irritate me this is going nowhere. i made an assertion, i backed it up, i stand by it, and i stand by my assessment that semi or full auto there is little distinction in terms of total dead all else equal in a mass shooting in the vast majority of cases.

you asked a question, i've given what i think is the best answer.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

lol this discussion just went from interesting to fucking ludicrous

you win dmch; you can fire certain semi autos faster than some automatics w/ great practice in perfect conditions while sacrificing mobility and accuracy.

 

[dmcheatw]

lol this discussion just went from interesting to fucking ludicrous

you win dmch; you can fire certain semi autos faster than some automatics w/ great practice in perfect conditions while sacrificing mobility and accuracy.

with great practice? you mean by sticking my thumb into the trigger guard and following the 7 steps i linked in the wiki-how? perhaps you should re-read the discussion as he quoted me before i was done editing some of my posts.

everything else you mentioned comes with any other automatic weapon as well except for machine pistols and subamchine guns which allow for a degree of mobility but that's it.

 

[ImTheCaptain]

if bump firing was so easy and convenient, we wouldn't have actual automatic weapons.

 

[leftcoastdeac]

with great practice? you mean by sticking my thumb into the trigger guard and following the 7 steps i linked in the wiki-how? perhaps you should re-read the discussion as he quoted me before i was done editing some of my posts.

everything else you mentioned comes with any other automatic weapon as well except for machine pistols and subamchine guns which allow for mobility but that's it

I find your bump fire argument as contrived as you found ELCs revolver argument, and like you, I stand by my points.

I think where we can agree is that this conversation is, indeed, going nowhere. And no need to hit a downer man, it's just the interwebz - the place where everybody is an expert and nobody can prove anyone else wrong.

 

[dmcheatw]

i think my argument is stronger than ELC's, but we can agree to disagree. no worries.

and ps, i take the downers for fun anyway, not because you've driven me to madness...yet