Official Wake - Yale Game Thread

[IrishSlim]

Real question: have you ever watched a Staak game or are you an alum who hopped on the bandwagon during our program's renaissance and think you're special because you never knew what it was like when times weren't so great?

If you have indeed experienced Staak, watched a game last year, and don't see improvement/admit your statements are hyperbole, then I don't know what to tell you. WS born and raised, and I'm proud of our guys.

How many wins did you have us down for, Irish?

Real answer: I showed up to Wake the same time Prosser did. It was hard not to be energized by him and his vision. I think his way, even when it faltered, is better than [Redacted]'s way. Better to shoot for the stars than settle for the mediocre. Not sure that has anything to do with a bandwagon, other than you kind of being a dick and being old and trying to prove you're a better fan or something silly like that.

So no, I wasn't around for the Staak years. I read about them and it sounds like they sucked. I wasn't around for the JFK assassination either, but I still know he's dead.

Do I see improvement from last year? Of course. Do I think it's enough to get us back to being anything but Tobacco Road's little brother? No. And there's nothing in Bzzz's history that suggests he's capable of such. Reno born and raised, and I'm proud of our guys. Doesn't mean I think they're being led the right way.

Not sure if I made a hard prediction before the year started, but if I did, it was probably in the 13-16 range.

 

[Doggus]

If you were predicting 16 wins this year with our current lineup then I don't think you are showing Bz the proper respect. Doubling his wins with the addition of Chase and subtraction of Ari, JTT and Tabb? What happens when he adds very solid 6 man recruiting class and only loses Nikita and Ty?

 

[Strickland33]

If you were predicting 16 wins this year with our current lineup then I don't think you are showing Bz the proper respect. Doubling his wins with the addition of Chase and subtraction of Ari, JTT and Tabb? What happens when he adds very solid 6 man recruiting class and only loses Nikita and Ty?

Agreed. Especially with all of this talk about our team not achieving our potential (from Irish and others)... It's absurd. The sentiment from Bzz'out, and those who thought we'd have another sub-10 season, is nuts. If we're winning more than 10 games, then technically, by those parameters, we're performing above "your" expectations. I think I predicted 15 and I was even a tad skeptical whether or not we'd get there, so I'm absolutely thrilled we're here already. Extremely impressed with CJ, at times Travis, at fewer times (though nonetheless) Carson, and I'm encouraged by what I'm seeing from Chase and Daniel.

At least this year, we're actually playing to our potential. You have to assume at least some of that is Bzz. Not saying I'm in or out, but I've been nonetheless impressed with our resilience and execution this year relative to last year. Add a good 2012 recruiting class and I'm encouraged by the direction of our program, something I wouldn't say at any point last season.

So much inconsistency in expectations. To my knowledge, nobody expected a 20-win season, so I'm not quite sure why there's so much discontent in these parts given how well we're doing. People forget Yale was 30-spots ahead of us on KenPom prior to the match-up. We're beating teams that we need to beat and, in my opinion, we've only lost one bad game. Think about what it was like a year ago and get your head out of the sand, people.

 

[IrishSlim]

Context, gentlemen, context. 15 wins against this weak schedule is nothing to crow about. Make all the excuses about talent/youth/depth that you want, it doesn't change the above.

You think blindly following the coach makes you a better fan? Cool beans. Some, myself included, disagree. I'll simply ask you to consider this - what's the ceiling of a Bzz-coached program? Is it in line with your own ambitions for the Wake basketball program? Remember, hope is not a method.

And please, no "transition coach" prattling. There's no such thing.

 

[Strickland33]

Context, gentlemen, context. 15 wins against this weak schedule is nothing to crow about. Make all the excuses about talent/youth/depth that you want, it doesn't change the above.

You think blindly following the coach makes you a better fan? Cool beans. Some, myself included, disagree. I'll simply ask you to consider this - what's the ceiling of a Bzz-coached program? Is it in line with your own ambitions for the Wake basketball program? And remember, hope is not a method.

And please, no "transition coach" prattling. There's no such thing.

It's a better schedule than last year. It's progress.

Nobody is blindly following a coach. We're seeing improvement from our players and our execution. Unlike the mods, I think a lot of folks, at least, accept this and recognize our current dilemma and skill level and are comfortable with these expectations.

We're stuck with Bzz for the near future and as long as the team gets better, then I'm willing to follow the party-line.

With this roster, Irish, and with this schedule, what are you actually expecting? Or, will you just come out and say that, no matter happens this year, you'll still not be happy?

 

[IrishSlim]

It's a better schedule than last year. It's progress.

Nobody is blindly following a coach. We're seeing improvement from our players and our execution. Unlike the mods, I think a lot of folks, at least, accept this and recognize our current dilemma and skill level and are comfortable with these expectations.

We're stuck with Bzz for the near future and as long as the team gets better, then I'm willing to follow the party-line.

With this roster, Irish, and with this schedule, what are you actually expecting? Or, will you just come out and say that, no matter happens this year, you'll still not be happy?

First, stop w/ the mods business. More of the mods are BuzzIn/BuzzWaitAndSee than BuzzOut. Show some basic understanding of addition.

What would make me happy this year? A NIT-berth, for one. A road win or two in the ACC would also be nice. Not getting humiliated by ASU would've been ideal. But more esoterically, some signs of life from a program headed straight for ApathyTown. I remember a full, energized Joel that was rocking and pissed off old fogies that didn't like noise. Now it's a tomb. That's not all on Bzzz. But some of it is.

 

[Deac83]

Oh man I'm so old and cool! Other than the opening ststement that's a valid post.

How did you know I was cool.

 

[tau06]

First, stop w/ the mods business. More of the mods are BuzzIn/BuzzWaitAndSee than BuzzOut. Show some basic understanding of addition.

What would make me happy this year? A NIT-berth, for one. A road win or two in the ACC would also be nice. Not getting humiliated by ASU would've been ideal. But more esoterically, some signs of life from a program headed straight for ApathyTown. I remember a full, energized Joel that was rocking and pissed off old fogies that didn't like noise. Now it's a tomb. That's not all on Bzzz. But some of it is.

id say its being realistic, noth apathetic.

 

[RJKarl]

Context, gentlemen, context. 15 wins against this weak schedule is nothing to crow about. Make all the excuses about talent/youth/depth that you want, it doesn't change the above.

You think blindly following the coach makes you a better fan? Cool beans. Some, myself included, disagree. I'll simply ask you to consider this - what's the ceiling of a Bzz-coached program? Is it in line with your own ambitions for the Wake basketball program? Remember, hope is not a method.

And please, no "transition coach" prattling. There's no such thing.

Fifteen wins wins after an eight win season and then losing your #3 and #4 socrer as well as your top rebounder off the bench is as unrealistic a goal as predicting the Kings will be NBA champs this season.

Only those who want [Redacted] to fail will set this as a realistic goal.

 

[IrishSlim]

Again, RJ, wanting Bzzz to fail and thinking he will are separate and distinct.

 

[Doggus]

Irish seems to suggest that college coaching success is predicted by charisma and dressing well. So Bz doesn't have loads of either. How does that mean his ceiling is low? He hasn't stuck around long enough anywhere to know for sure what his ceiling is.
There are a lot of unathletic looking, kinda nerdy coaches that achieved great things. Take Wooden, Coach K, Brad Stevens for example.
I'm not arguing that he's great, that he's the guy I wanted or that he's the best we could get. but he's our guy for now, he's been able to recruit a very good class for next year and has a vision for the team that I think could work very well. I see no reason to think we couldn't be a top 3-4 ACC program again in 2-3 years.

 

[Deac83]

Real answer: I showed up to Wake the same time Prosser did. It was hard not to be energized by him and his vision. I think his way, even when it faltered, is better than [Redacted]'s way. Better to shoot for the stars than settle for the mediocre. Not sure that has anything to do with a bandwagon, other than you kind of being a dick and being old and trying to prove you're a better fan or something silly like that.

So no, I wasn't around for the Staak years. I read about them and it sounds like they sucked. I wasn't around for the JFK assassination either, but I still know he's dead.

Do I see improvement from last year? Of course. Do I think it's enough to get us back to being anything but Tobacco Road's little brother? No. And there's nothing in Bzzz's history that suggests he's capable of such. Reno born and raised, and I'm proud of our guys. Doesn't mean I think they're being led the right way.

Not sure if I made a hard prediction before the year started, but if I did, it was probably in the 13-16 range.

and ...

"Define "winners." I definitely see him getting us to NCAAs two out of every five years and finishing in the top half of the ACC three out of every five years. Personally, I consider that mediocre and think Wake can do much better - hell, I've seen it - but other fans disagree. The expectations in our fanbase vary wildly, something that has a lot to do w/ when a particular fan became a fan of Wake basketball. "

Sooo, let me make sure I have this straight, because Prosser was a dynamic personality it was ok to be #1 in the country one year and then last in the conference the next?

Also OK to go to the NCAA 4 years in a row and then effectively miss the next 3 years (i.e. 2 Prosser, 1 Dino)?

Just saying.

 

[Strickland33]

Again, RJ, wanting Bzzz to fail and thinking he will are separate and distinct.

Not really. It's more of a semantic distinction when you're openly classifying yourself as Bzz'out. Maybe that's unfair, but that's between you and your presentation, I think, more than it is a matter between "wanting" and "thinking." You know?

And, we don't get an NIT bid on a 13-16 win season, Irish, so how is an NIT-bid, with your expectations, a fair expectation for this team's potential? Do you not see how frustrating this is?

And, please educate me on these mods' position because I hear a lot from some and not the others. Unlike other posters, I like to avoid making false assumptions...

 

[IrishSlim]

Irish seems to suggest that college coaching success is predicted by charisma and dressing well.

I do? Where? Methinks you're projecting.

and ...

Sooo, let me make sure I have this straight, because Prosser was a dynamic personality it was ok to be #1 in the country one year and then last in the conference the next?

Definitely not, but there was something in Prosser's track record - you know, history - that suggested he'd bounce back as a coach. There's zilch in [Redacted]'s history that suggests he's capable of such. That's a problem at 61.

Not really. It's more of a semantic distinction when you're openly classifying yourself as Bzz'out. Maybe that's unfair, but that's between you and your presentation, I think, more than it is a matter between "wanting" and "thinking." You know?

I don't know, actually. I've read this over 10 times and have no idea what you're saying/suggesting.

And, we don't get an NIT bid on a 13-16 win season, Irish, so how is an NIT-bid, with your expectations, a fair expectation for this team's potential? Do you not see how frustrating this is?

My prediction of wins v. my expectations for this team's potential are two different things entirely. That's not frustrating, it's nuance.

And, please educate me on these mods' position because I hear a lot from some and not the others. Unlike other posters, I like to avoid making false assumptions...

7 > 3. Straightforward enough?

 

[Strickland33]

LOL. Okay. Here is my perception of your position:

You're Bzz'out. You're neither "in" or waiting-and-seeing, you want our coach out. To me, that means that regardless of whether he wins 9-games or 18-games this season, then you want him out. That, to me, means that "wanting" or "thinking" is nothing but a semantic distinction because, regardless of whether or not you're desire to out our coach is passive or active (thinking or wanting) you want our coach out and you're outspoken as such. If this is not how you feel, then you should either probably be wait-and-see like the rest of us, or just stop being so vocally Bzz'out.

My prediction of wins v. my expectations for this team's potential are two different things entirely. That's not frustrating, it's nuance.

Nuance, my a**. It's a completely unrealistic expectation relative to what you think our team is capable of. If I think this team is going to get 15 wins (or, like you, 13-16 wins), and if they don't get an NIT-berth then I'm going to be disappointed (considering the fact that it's impossible to get such a bid without at least 18-20 wins or a very good RPI these days), then both I and you will be disappointed. That is what is called an unrealistic expectation. How is this, in any way, nuance?

Definitely not, but there was something in Prosser's track record - you know, history - that suggested he'd bounce back as a coach. There's zilch in [Redacted]'s history that suggests he's capable of such. That's a problem at 61.

I agree completely with this in spirit, but it doesn't really jive with what has actually happened with [Redacted]. His team's get better. Perhaps not last-to-first better, but nonetheless. With his record, I feel comfortable assuming that he'll get us to a place that will make this an attractive job again and, after the state of program post-Gaudio, that's a good proposition. You say that you don't buy "transition" coaches, but that's really what [Redacted]'s record points to...

You still haven't answered my question about the mods. Or, perhaps you did, but I have no idea what 7>3 means.

 

[IrishSlim]

LOL. Okay. Here is my perception of your position:

You're Bzz'out. You're neither "in" or waiting-and-seeing, you want our coach out. To me, that means that regardless of whether he wins 9-games or 18-games this season, then you want him out. That, to me, means that "wanting" or "thinking" is nothing but a semantic distinction because, regardless of whether or not you're desire to out our coach is passive or active (thinking or wanting) you want our coach out and you're outspoken as such. If this is not how you feel, then you should either probably be wait-and-see like the rest of us, or just stop being so vocally Bzz'out.



Nuance, my a**. It's a completely unrealistic expectation relative to what you think our team is capable of. If I think this team is going to get 15 wins (or, like you, 13-16 wins), and if they don't get an NIT-berth then I'm going to be disappointed (considering the fact that it's impossible to get such a bid without at least 18-20 wins or a very good RPI these days), then both I and you will be disappointed. That is what is called an unrealistic expectation. How is this, in any way, nuance?



I agree completely with this in spirit, but it doesn't really jive with what has actually happened with [Redacted]. His team's get better. Perhaps not last-to-first better, but nonetheless. With his record, I feel comfortable assuming that he'll get us to a place that will make this an attractive job again and, after the state of program post-Gaudio, that's a good proposition. You say that you don't buy "transition" coaches, but that's really what [Redacted]'s record points to...

You still haven't answered my question about the mods. Or, perhaps you did, but I have no idea what 7>3 means.

Sorry, I'm not going to fit into your black-and-white worldview. First, I'm BuzzOut because I don't think [Redacted] is the answer as coach of our program. I think that. I always want Wake to win, and thus, want [Redacted] to succeed. Nuance!

Second, how I expect a team to perform under [Redacted] and what I think the same team's capabilities are, in fact, entirely different things. For example, I believe Dino would've won more games last year than [Redacted] with the same roster. That's not much nuance, but considering the simplicity with which you're attempting to steer this exchange, I guess it is ... Nuance!

Third, there's no such thing as a transition coach. There's a current coach, and a former coach. Either [Redacted] is the answer or he's not. Dino didn't leave the program in an incredible place, but he left it with more talent than many programs have.

And finally, 7 mods that are BuzzIn/BuzzWaitAndSee > 3 mods that are BuzzOut. Much like the above points, I'd prefer if you didn't paint with such a broad brush on this matter. It's unbecoming and inaccurate.

 

[Strickland33]

Sorry, I'm not going to fit into your black-and-white worldview. First, I'm BuzzOut because I don't think [Redacted] is the answer as coach of our program. I think that. I always want Wake to win, and thus, want [Redacted] to succeed. Nuance!

Wait-and-see is gray, it's not black and white. It's what most of us on these boards are and it sounds like you're probably like this, too. My worldview is always gray because I've lived through and watched five coaches coach Wake Forest and have seen a lot of good and a lot of bad. It is with this that I feel good about this team and am willing to wait and see about [Redacted]. He might not be the answer, but he's no more of an answer than Odom or Gaudio ever were at the time in my opinion, for instance. Who that we could sign is the answer?

Second, how I expect a team to perform under [Redacted] and what I think the same team's capabilities are, are in fact, entirely different things. For example, I believe Dino would've won more games last year than [Redacted] with the same roster. That's not much nuance, but considering the simplicity with which you're attempting to steer this exchange, I guess it is ... Nuance!

That's speculation, not nuance. I think Bones McKinney would have brought last year's team to the Final Four. But he's not alive and Dino wasn't our coach, so what's the point? How can you possibly use this completely absurd ahistorical speculation to inform your expectations of our team's capabilities? It still literally makes no sense. A 13-16 win team is still not going to get an NIT bid, so it's always going to be an unrealistic expectation. Not sure I'm seeing your point.

Third, there's no such thing as a transition coach. There's a current coach, and a former coach. Either [Redacted] is the answer or he's not. Dino didn't leave the program in an incredible place, but he left it with more talent than many programs have.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. In my opinion, though, there's a reason that there only a handful of coaches are untouchable and I'm not sure that many AD's would disagree.

And finally, 7 mods that are BuzzIn/BuzzWaitAndSee > 3 mods that are BuzzOut. Much like the above points, I'd prefer if you didn't paint with such a broad brush on this matter. It's unbecoming.

Who is "in?" I ask because "wait-and-see" is gray, it's not black and white and it's what most on this board consider themselves to be. The only reason I paint with a broad brush because you and DV7 (sorry, I know you're trying DV7 and I respect it) are so outspokenly Bzz'out. If you don't like it, then try out some of that nuance in your analysis and presentation.

..

 

[IrishSlim]

1) Go to main page.

2) Click on "Forum Leaders." View mods and admins.

3) See mods and admins not named "Deacvision7," "IrishSlim," and "MarqueeMoon."

4) Knowledge!

 

[Strickland33]

1) Go to main page.

2) Click on "Forum Leaders." View mods and admins.

3) See mods and admins not named "Deacvision7," "IrishSlim," and "MarqueeMoon."

4) Knowledge!

Nice. Thank you for so essentially informing my black-and-white worldview while addressing nothing else in my previous post.

 

[IrishSlim]

Nice. Thank you for so essentially informing my black-and-white worldview while addressing nothing else in my previous post.

Why would I continue arguing about shades of grey with someone who couldn't figure that out? Not trying to be rude (okay, yes I am), but we're not getting anywhere. At least this way, something concrete is taken from this exchange. If you're looking for a vocal mod or admin that feels similarly to you about Bzzz, Cookout is your best bet.