• Welcome to OGBoards 10.0, keep in mind that we will be making LOTS of changes to smooth out the experience here and make it as close as possible functionally to the old software, but feel free to drop suggestions or requests in the Tech Support subforum!

Ongoing Dem Debacle Thread: Commander will kill us all

myDeaconmyhand said:
By that measure, Ojeda outperformed Beto with an older, whiter, less educated constituency. Lets not pretend that Beto isn't a Dem establishment darling for some very specific reasons. They would love nothing more than to clear the field for a charismatic moderate who will fall in line.
Click to expand...

But Ojeda was in one House district, not a huge red state.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
By that measure, Ojeda outperformed Beto with an older, whiter, less educated constituency. Lets not pretend that Beto isn't a Dem establishment darling for some very specific reasons. They would love nothing more than to clear the field for a charismatic moderate who will fall in line.
Click to expand...

He raised a shit load of grass roots money, is appealing to young voters, and could actually win in 2020?
 
I think Bernie is a decent case study. He had enough personality and cute moments, but his platform is what drove his popularity.
 
JuiceCrewAllStar said:
I think Bernie is a decent case study. He had enough personality and cute moments, but his platform is what drove his popularity.
Click to expand...

I agree a lot with this. The biggest constituency that candidates need to tap into, and especially presidential candidates, is voters aged 18-35. The things that these voters care about is equity in opportunities (different from equality), some help with crippling debt foisted upon us by older generations, to not ruin the Earth for everyone that comes after us, and for the love of god can we just not be racist/homophobic/sexist? A Democratic moderate is just a masochist who doesn't really want that much change. It's really easy to be an opposition moderate, it's difficult to then turn that into good governance once your party is in power. Bernie sort of tapped into that unrealized potential in that demographic, but there is more that can be done. A much younger, more representative candidate (Kamala, please) could drive those grassroots even deeper. Run on things that young voters care about and they have shown that they will show up.
 
On yesterday's Pod Save America, they talked about how the Dems plan to manage a large field of candidates. They said the DNC is probably going to randomly split up debates and for example have a Tuesday debate and Wednesday debate. That's a much better plan than how the RNC did JV and varsity debates based on polls.
 
PhDeac said:
On yesterday's Pod Save America, they talked about how the Dems plan to manage a large field of candidates. They said the DNC is probably going to randomly split up debates and for example have a Tuesday debate and Wednesday debate. That's a much better plan than how the RNC did JV and varsity debates based on polls.
Click to expand...

"randomly"
 
PhDeac said:
On yesterday's Pod Save America, they talked about how the Dems plan to manage a large field of candidates. They said the DNC is probably going to randomly split up debates and for example have a Tuesday debate and Wednesday debate. That's a much better plan than how the RNC did JV and varsity debates based on polls.
Click to expand...

WFFaithful said:
"randomly"
Click to expand...

This.
 
Liquid Karma said:
This.
Click to expand...

Fair point.

If the DNC wants to do this right, they should broadcast the draws like the NBA lottery. The need to suck all the attention possible from the debates. One of the big problems in 2016 was that the DNC didn't want attention to the debates and the RNC took it and held on to the media narratives.
 
Even if it's not wholly random, having multiple debates is the way to go. Let's say there is a hypothetical field of 10+ candidates. In this hypothetical field is Joe Biden, Beto O'Rourke, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, among others, but let's go with them as the heavy hitters. Maybe even throw Bloomberg in there for shits and gigs. It makes 100% sense to separate the heavy hitters between 2 debates rather than try to get the "varsity" candidates on the stage together and relegate anyone else to the "JV" debate. For one thing, it allows Dem candidates, especially the most serious ones, more chances to speak on issues and to actually have the focus be on what they stand for, rather than a circus. Second, it'll give the lesser-known candidates the same airspace and screen time as the heavy hitters and we could see development in those candidates, plus legitimate challenges from more specific-issue candidates to the prominent candidates that otherwise might not happen.

The bottom line is that the Democrats should watch what happened in 2016 and do literally everything opposite to how the GOP allowed their primary to be run.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Bernie's problem with minorities was that they preferred Hillary in the 2016 primary. What does that have to do with Beto?
Click to expand...

And if they preferred a dog shit candidate like Hillary Clinton to him in the 2016 primary, where does that leave Bernie moving forward? I voted for Bernie in 2016. But let's not act like that because he's an unapologetic progessive that any warts on his profile and/or resume are everybody else's fault.

ETA: Beto isn't an "establishment" darling simply because he's more moderate than Bernie. He's 100 years younger. He ran a remarkable campaign that lifted Texas Democrats down ballot. The appeal of a candidate isn't 100% about policy.
 
Last edited:
Jamison2Carter said:
And if they preferred a dog shit candidate like Hillary Clinton to him in the 2016 primary, where does that leave Bernie moving forward? I voted for Bernie in 2016. But let's not act like that because he's an unapologetic progessive that any warts on his profile and/or resume are everybody else's fault.

ETA: Beto isn't an "establishment" darling simply because he's more moderate than Bernie. He's 100 years younger. He ran a remarkable campaign that lifted Texas Democrats down ballot. The appeal of a candidate isn't 100% about policy.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And if everything works out, policy won't just be about President Beto. It will be about the 300 Dems in Congress as well. It's about way more than policy.
 
Jamison2Carter said:
And if they preferred a dog shit candidate like Hillary Clinton to him in the 2016 primary, where does that leave Bernie moving forward?
Click to expand...

Disengenious premise. If you're trying to relitigate the primary for the millionth time your doing a terrible fucking job. Not all.of us have short term memory loss. Hillary was extremely popular with the Democratic base, particularly college educated women, particularly african american women. She had 30 years of name recognition and loyalty, Beto doesnt.

I have no doubt that a moderate establishment favorite is going to win the primary, but the unspoken presumption that minorities will always prefer a moderate just because they chose Hillary in 2016, is fucking dumb. Its anecdotal and fallacious.
 
Last edited:
No. You’re pointing out groups that didn’t show up for Hillary in the general as evidence Bernie wasn’t a problem in the primary.
 
I mean there's also the fact that Bernie isn't a Democrat
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Disengenious premise. If you're trying to relitigate the primary for the millionth time your doing a terrible fucking job. Not all.of us have short term memory loss. Hillary was extremely popular with the Democratic base, particularly college educated women, particularly african american women. She had 30 years of name recognition and loyalty, Beto doesnt.
Click to expand...

The 2016 primary is only relevant insofar as it is the most recent, major contested campaign in which Bernie participated that reflects on his quality as a candidate. The fact that Bernie didn't appeal to certain constituencies in the Democratic Party is not only a reflection of his competition - it reflects on his quality as a candidate/his appeal as well. Not sure why that's a controversial position to take. Your position is that many of the qualities I noted that make Beto appealing to the Democratic establishment are also possessed by Bernie. To some extent, perhaps. But overall, I don't think Bernie will have the same appeal that Beto does, for many reasons - some of which were noted above. And if Beto runs, I suppose we'll get our chance to see how much he appeals to said groups within the Democratic Party vis-a-vis Bernie.

ETA: "I have no doubt that a moderate establishment favorite is going to win the primary, but the unspoken presumption that minorities will always prefer a moderate just because they chose Hillary in 2016, is fucking dumb. Its anecdotal and fallacious."

Who is saying that minorities will prefer moderate candidates? You assumed that argument and responded to it, but nobody is making it. Bernie didn't appeal to minority voters in 2016 - and it wasn't because of his policies. And it's not all because Hillary had a longstanding brand. It's not that black voters didn't like the ideas of medicare for all, free college education, or a higher minimum wage. Not everything is about your DSA-establishment war. There's a lot more to politics than that.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top