Our Next BB Coach or #MannUp + other coach talk

[RJKarl]

So, White hasn't changed that.....he has zero in three years and two of those years LA Tech was #1 seed in conference tourneys.

 

[thedeacfan]

@GoodmanESPN: New Tulsa coach Frank Haith has hired Tom Abatemarco on his staff, source told ESPN.

The sleazy guy Ron wouldn't let Bz bring to Wake.

Could it be that RW already had Buzz's coaching staff selected, so as a matter of expedience he threw Abatemarco in the "bad culture" basket with Dino?

 

[WFU Lurker]

You can try to drag up mischaracterizations about my position on our former coach all you like.

The person's total background is what we chose between White and Manning.

You haven't elevated a program if you have gotten a #1 seed in multiple years in your conference and haven't closed the deal by making The Dance. You refuse to address this.

I am not refusing to address it, you are refusing to accept how I've addressed it: I have said over and over I don't care about a sample size of one. That's all you're talking about here. And I don't. White did indeed elevate his program simply by getting the number 1 seed.

And, no, I am not mischaracterizing your initial position on [Redacted]. You went round and round with numerous posters, explaining away [Redacted]'s late season woes at Air Force by saying that his teams were dependent on 3 pt shooting by necessity (quite right) and that the shots simply had stopped dropping at the end of the seasons (probably had something to do with him running his players into the ground while auditioning for better jobs...of course it worked, got Colorado and Wake by running up the score) and also blasting anyone who suggested that [Redacted]'s NBA connections weren't going to make that much of a difference in recruiting. You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

What a coach does as a head coach is always going to be a better indication of what he will do as a head coach than what he has done as an assistant. That seems pretty straight forward to me. And, it also seems pretty straight forward to me, that the only way you can characterize Manning as having a better track record as a head coach is if you overemphasize 1-2 games.

Manning could be a great hire, but he has a miniscule track record as a head coach, and that's why there's a ton of risk here. White would be less risk. Maybe less upside, if you argue that he hasn't shown he can win when it matters most, but I think that's a fairly dubious argument (because how can you prove anything across a sample size of 2?). To me, Manning's head coaching record doesn't really answer too many questions about his ability to lead a program. The streak this year was nice, but that's pretty much the positive. And, yet again, small sample size.

 

[WFU Lurker]

So, White hasn't changed that.....he has zero in three years and two of those years LA Tech was #1 seed in conference tourneys.

13th most wins in the past 20 seasons.

 

[RJKarl]

13th most wins in the past 20 seasons.

If he can't win a post-season tourney in in the WAC or CUSA, what can you expect in the ACC against Pitino, K, boeheim, Forest, Bennett, et al?

 

[WFU Lurker]

If he can't win a post-season tourney in in the WAC or CUSA, what can you expect in the ACC against Pitino, K, boeheim, Forest, Bennett, et al?

I haven't been shown that he can't win a post-season tourney in the WAC or CUSA. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. In fact, he got quite close this year. It's not the least bit sound to decide whether one coach is better than another based on a single 9 point game. Was [Redacted] a better coach than Skip? [Redacted]'s owns the head to head, and the margin was quite a bit higher too.

If Manning can't win more than 18 games in the regular season in CUSA, what can you expect in the ACC against Pitino, K, boeheim, Forest, Bennett, et al?

 

[RJKarl]

I am not refusing to address it, you are refusing to accept how I've addressed it: I have said over and over I don't care about a sample size of one. That's all you're talking about here. And I don't. White did indeed elevate his program simply by getting the number 1 seed.

And, no, I am not mischaracterizing your initial position on [Redacted]. You went round and round with numerous posters, explaining away [Redacted]'s late season woes at Air Force by saying that his teams were dependent on 3 pt shooting by necessity (quite right) and that the shots simply had stopped dropping at the end of the seasons (probably had something to do with him running his players into the ground while auditioning for better jobs...of course it worked, got Colorado and Wake by running up the score) and also blasting anyone who suggested that [Redacted]'s NBA connections weren't going to make that much of a difference in recruiting. You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

What a coach does as a head coach is always going to be a better indication of what he will do as a head coach than what he has done as an assistant. That seems pretty straight forward to me. And, it also seems pretty straight forward to me, that the only way you can characterize Manning as having a better track record as a head coach is if you overemphasize 1-2 games.

Manning could be a great hire, but he has a miniscule track record as a head coach, and that's why there's a ton of risk here. White would be less risk. Maybe less upside, if you argue that he hasn't shown he can win when it matters most, but I think that's a fairly dubious argument (because how can you prove anything across a sample size of 2?). To me, Manning's head coaching record doesn't really answer too many questions about his ability to lead a program. The streak this year was nice, but that's pretty much the positive. And, yet again, small sample size.

You really love to make shit up.

White has ONE whole year more as a HC. White also failed in pressure situations in WAC and CUSA. He has ZERO track record in such games in minor conferences. You can't get around this.

White's track record is lacking. both have little to discuss as HC. That's why you need use other coaching experience and under whom they have played and coached.

 

[RJKarl]

I haven't been shown that he can't win a post-season tourney in the WAC or CUSA. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. In fact, he got quite close this year.

If Manning can't win more than 18 games in the regular season in CUSA, what can you expect in the ACC against Pitino, K, boeheim, Forest, Bennett, et al?

WHITE LOST BOTH TIMES with better teams as #1 seeds. You can't get away from this.

Tulsa was picked for fourth or lower in CUSDA this season. They tied the preseason #1 team for the regular season title and won the conference tourney.

 

[WFU Lurker]

WHITE LOST BOTH TIMES with better teams as #1 seeds. You can't get away from this.

Tulsa was picked for fourth or lower in CUSDA this season. They tied the preseason #1 team for the regular season title and won the conference tourney.

I'm not trying to get away from it. I'm basing my opinion on the entire season. Not on one or two games.

12 OF THE LAST 20 TULSA TEAMS WON MORE GAMES THAN MANNING'S BEST. You can't get away from this.

 

[RJKarl]

I'm not trying to get away from it. I'm basing my opinion on the entire season. Not on one or two games.

12 OF THE LAST 20 TULSA TEAMS WON MORE GAMES THAN MANNING'S BEST. You can't get away from this.

Who cares what happened ten years ago? It's totally irrelevant.

By the way, White HASN'T changed LA Tech. They have not made the NCAAT under him. Twice they were favored to win conference tourneys. Twice he failed.

It's one thing not win a conference tourney as a #4 seed, but not as back-to-back #1 seeds.

You can't get away from the fact that he hasn't proven to be able win under pressure.

 

[WFU Lurker]

You really love to make shit up.

White has ONE whole year more as a HC. White also failed in pressure situations in WAC and CUSA. He has ZERO track record in such games in minor conferences. You can't get around this.

White's track record is lacking. both have little to discuss as HC. That's why you need use other coaching experience and under whom they have played and coached.

Nope. Not making anything up, although you are.

White has a winning record in "must win to make the NCAAT games" (5-3 in conference tournaments). Doesn't seem like no record to me.

 

[WFU Lurker]

Who cares what happened ten years ago? It's totally irrelevant.

By the way, White HASN'T changed LA Tech. They have not made the NCAAT under him. Twice they were favored to win conference tourneys. Twice he failed.

It's one thing not win a conference tourney as a #4 seed, but not as back-to-back #1 seeds.

You can't get away from the fact that he hasn't proven to be able win under pressure.

Not trying to get away from it. I don't think Manning has either. One game doesn't prove anything. That's what you don't understand. If you're opinion on someone's ability changes so severely over the course of 40 minutes then you probably need to rethink how you determine that opinion.

Going from 12 wins to 29 is really impressive. That's what you can't get away from. More impressive than 17 to 21.

 

[FckVwls]

IMO, White has the better resume between White/Manning

1.White built a better a team at a weaker program (La Tech was -4 in CUSA title game vs Tulsa on neutral, had stronger Vegas lines against every single shared opponent all season).
2. His success is with players he brought into the program vs. Manning who achieved his success with Wojcik's players.
3. White also has a much more identifiable style for winning (turnover margin) whereas Manning's success driver (eFG% defense) is a bit more fuzzy given only a 1 year track record in that area.

Losing one Conf championship game doesn't change all of those things.

The main positive for Manning is that his team was young and you could have reasonably extrapolated very strong years the next two with Tulsa's mega soph class. Additionally Manning has higher level assistant experience coming from the Self tree. Both have only coached one main player group, which is a risk for both.

But at the end of the day White didn't want our job and Manning was a really good hire. Basically the best we could have done. So that is really the bottom line.

 

[WFU Lurker]

IMO, White has the better resume between White/Manning

1.White built a better a team at a weaker program (La Tech was -4 in CUSA title game vs Tulsa on neutral, had stronger Vegas lines against every single shared opponent all season).
2. His success is with players he brought into the program vs. Manning who achieved his success with Wojcik's players.
3. White also has a much more identifiable style for winning (turnover margin) whereas Manning's success driver (eFG% defense) is a bit more fuzzy given only a 1 year track record in that area.

Losing one Conf championship game doesn't change all of those things.

The main positive for Manning is that his team was young and you could have reasonably extrapolated very strong years the next two with Tulsa's mega soph class. Additionally Manning has higher level assistant experience coming from the Self tree. Both have only coached one main player group, which is a risk for both.

But at the end of the day White didn't want our job and Manning was a really good hire. Basically the best we could have done. So that is really the bottom line.

Agree with all of this.

 

[RJKarl]

You willfully miss my point. it's not about one game between the two. It's about their entire bodies of work. White hasn't made it over the hump yet. Manning has had success at every level. Whether you like it or not having a name has a benefit. This is another aspect that helps Manning versus White.

 

[RJKarl]

IMO, White has the better resume between White/Manning

1.White built a better a team at a weaker program (La Tech was -4 in CUSA title game vs Tulsa on neutral, had stronger Vegas lines against every single shared opponent all season).
2. His success is with players he brought into the program vs. Manning who achieved his success with Wojcik's players.
3. White also has a much more identifiable style for winning (turnover margin) whereas Manning's success driver (eFG% defense) is a bit more fuzzy given only a 1 year track record in that area.

Losing one Conf championship game doesn't change all of those things.

The main positive for Manning is that his team was young and you could have reasonably extrapolated very strong years the next two with Tulsa's mega soph class. Additionally Manning has higher level assistant experience coming from the Self tree. Both have only coached one main player group, which is a risk for both.

But at the end of the day White didn't want our job and Manning was a really good hire. Basically the best we could have done. So that is really the bottom line.

There's no proof we ever offered or seriously pursued White. Saying he didn't want our job is pure conjecture.

I never said ONE game made a huge difference. So far White has not won anything. You can't get past this.

 

[OldGoldBeard]

Why would anyone not trust RJ's evaluations of a newly-hired WF coach?

YOU could have done better than Dino did with three Top 20 picks, Ish and other very good players.

[Redacted] or ANY competent coach would have has that team in the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 and could have made the Final 4 with a good draw.

[Redacted] would have lit up the scorboard with Ish driving, JJ from the FT line, lobs to Farouq and JT slashing.

That team should have been unstoppable on offense. If a coach put in a pro offense, they would have scored 88-92 ppg. [Redacted] knows how coach NBA offense.

He proved it with the Nuggets and scored a lot with AFA.

No he doesn't....he hasn't built a team from the pits of a BCS conference to being compeititive.

I wasn't excited about hiring [Redacted], but he's much better than Gregory.

Coming 7th or worse five out of the past six years in a second rate conference is worse then what [Redacted] did at CU and it's not even close.

If you look at his teams at AFA and CU, they had no one who could rebound.

Maybe now that he has one or two people who can, they will.

He has been coaching to the players he has.

With everything that happened last year, no coach could have done apprecaibly better...and no 10 wins is not appreciably better. we still would have bene last in the ACC and absolutely awful.

The reality is if [Redacted] gets us to The Danbce in 12/13, you will frget everything you have said anbd say,"you I really wanted to give him a chance."

You aren't alone in the haters on this board.

I have no clue what's goign to happen. What I do know is that no coach has ever been given a worse hand at Wake since the 60s.

Fifteen wins wins after an eight win season and then losing your #3 and #4 socrer as well as your top rebounder off the bench is as unrealistic a goal as predicting the Kings will be NBA champs this season.

Only those who want [Redacted] to fail will set this as a realistic goal.

Even before we lost JTT no one was expecting this team to be that good. Most rational people had seen a light at the end of the tunnel with a Top 15 2012 recruiting class coming in.

What's sad is those who refuse to give any credit ever. There is a solid group that determined the day [Redacted] was announced that they would only look for failure. To deny this is to deny history.

If we make The Dance next year, the Buzzouters will say, "Crean beat #1 and #2 in the same season."

If we make the Sweet 16 under [Redacted], the Buzzouters will say,"We could have made the FF. After all we did in the 60s."

There are many people here so invested in [Redacted]'s failure nothing he does will ever be enough.

 

[FckVwls]

You willfully miss my point. it's not about one game between the two. It's about their entire bodies of work. White hasn't made it over the hump yet. Manning has had success at every level. Whether you like it or not having a name has a benefit. This is another aspect that helps Manning versus White.

Could be true, actually. Will be interesting to see if this plays out in recruiting. I honestly have no idea.

 

[WFU Lurker]

You willfully miss my point. it's not about one game between the two. It's about their entire bodies of work. White hasn't made it over the hump yet. Manning has had success at every level. Whether you like it or not having a name has a benefit. This is another aspect that helps Manning versus White.

But what proves to you that Manning got over the hump? One game. That's ultimately what it boils down to, and, again, I just don't care that much about one game. To me it's an elevate vs not elevate question. Seems clear that White elevated La Tech by winning 56 games in two seasons with his own players. Seems clear that Manning did not elevate Tulsa just because he went 3-0 over the course of 3 days with players he inherited. You can argue that your approach is right, but don't argue that mine is unreasonable because it really isn't.

You're right. I don't care about the name pretty much at all. I suspect most non-OWG won't. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

 

[RJKarl]

That is fucking HILARIOUS. It shows how delusional and willing misrepresent some are. Here's what was quoted:

"I wasn't excited about hiring [name redacted], but he's much better than Gregory.

Coming 7th or worse five out of the past six years in a second rate conference is worse then what [name redacted] did at CU and it's not even close."

I definitively said I was "excited" about the hire. All this said is that Gregory sucked too.

The post about Dino is absolutely true and those who understand basketball know it is.

Using this one is and saying "RJ thinks he knows everything" is one of the silliest things ever:

"I have no clue what's goign to happen. What I do know is that no coach has ever been given a worse hand at Wake since the 60s."