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Pope Francis Basically Just Admitted There May Not Be a God

Wrangor said:
And that should do it for anyone that imagines RevDeac as a representative of Christianity.
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Read after the comma. Now we know why people think Christians are dimwits.

ETA- maybe a bit harsh, didn't mean to be insulting (which is how I read your comment). That doesn't lead to good conversation. Just frustrated at the lack of willingness to understand the deeper meaning, which is a great metaphor for the entire liberal/conservative debate.
 
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Junebug said:
What I'm saying is that the interpretation of God in that sermon you heard on Abraham strikes me as fundamentally inconsistent with the picture of God painted in the Bible. Rather, the interpretation in the sermon strikes me as more akin to the concept of the good in Plato. I take the point that God can reveal himself in whatever way he chooses, but, assuming these the biblical narrative and Plato are contradictory at some level (and if you don't think they are contradictory, then I'm sure we can come up with some that are), don't you have to give some sort of priority to the revelation in the Bible? If not, how do you judge between competing and contradictory views?
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I'd have to listen to the sermon again. Didn't strike me as a a Platonic view vs a Biblical view, and there was some good Biblical exegesis that went along with it.
Though, in full disclosure, I'd put money on the Abraham saga (or really, most of the Pentateuch) being based in metaphor than literal truth- which colors my interpretation of said events. If it was written during the Exile, then it's (mostly) a story about obedience.
 
Junebug said:
Well, now wait. I'd like to understand what he is saying first. Aphorisms are easy to misunderstand.
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Thanks. Just meant that I'm not going to limit God with a phrase like "the God of the Bible." For God's sake (literally), the Divine name means something like "I am what I am" or "I will be what I will be." Bottom line, the name connotes existence itself. So to limit God to a book is wrong, imo. God is bigger than the Bible, isn't that the whole point of the Holy Spirit? And when people pay too much attention to a book instead of the God to which that book points, we lose sight of the very faith we claim to have.
 
RevDeac06 said:
Thanks. Just meant that I'm not going to limit God with a phrase like "the God of the Bible." For God's sake (literally), the Divine name means something like "I am what I am" or "I will be what I will be." Bottom line, the name connotes existence itself. So to limit God to a book is wrong, imo. God is bigger than the Bible, isn't that the whole point of the Holy Spirit? And when people pay too much attention to a book instead of the God to which that book points, we lose sight of the very faith we claim to have.
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This is such a good post. If more ministers, pastors, priests, rabbis, muftis, imams, bhikshus, etc, took this point of view, there would be so much less violence in the name of religion.
 
RevDeac06 said:
I'd have to listen to the sermon again. Didn't strike me as a a Platonic view vs a Biblical view, and there was some good Biblical exegesis that went along with it.
Though, in full disclosure, I'd put money on the Abraham saga (or really, most of the Pentateuch) being based in metaphor than literal truth- which colors my interpretation of said events. If it was written during the Exile, then it's (mostly) a story about obedience.
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I don't doubt it's metaphor either, but, again, I think the husk of the story contains kernels of truth about God.

And I hear you re: God's revelation of himself not being limited to the Bible. But what is a Christian to do when the picture of God in the bible truly conflicts with another picture? Does the biblical picture have any claim of authority?
 
Junebug said:
I don't doubt it's metaphor either, but, again, I think the husk of the story contains kernels of truth about God.

And I hear you re: God's revelation of himself not being limited to the Bible. But what is a Christian to do when the picture of God in the bible truly conflicts with another picture? Does the biblical picture have any claim of authority?
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Which view of the Bible though? There are so many theologies, voices, views about God in Scripture that it's nearly impossible to say which is right or true. I'm Anglican in my theology, which some describe as being built on a three-legged stool of Scripture, Reason, and Tradition. So, for me, authority always goes through those 3 lenses.
 
RevDeac06 said:
Thanks. Just meant that I'm not going to limit God with a phrase like "the God of the Bible." For God's sake (literally), the Divine name means something like "I am what I am" or "I will be what I will be." Bottom line, the name connotes existence itself. So to limit God to a book is wrong, imo. God is bigger than the Bible, isn't that the whole point of the Holy Spirit? And when people pay too much attention to a book instead of the God to which that book points, we lose sight of the very faith we claim to have.
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Pay attention to God instead of the Bible? That leads to exactly every problem the church has. Mainly there is no standard because anyone can say 'God told me to do it'.

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God told me to bomb the abortion shelter.

God told me to hate gays.

God told me to only give to those who are responsible with the gift.

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What we need to do as a Christian culture is to quit creating our own God and use the only true resource we have that tells is about Him in His own words. Every time I think I can't disagree with you more you surprise me.

I can't imagine a Christian life in which one of the objectives is move oneself further away from a biblical definition of God.
 
There is such a house of cards paranoia associated with biblical literalism.
 
Agree that we don't get to make our own gods, but that is what discernment and community are for. Imo, the Bible isn't a book of directions, it gives direction.
 
RevDeac06 said:
Which view of the Bible though? There are so many theologies, voices, views about God in Scripture that it's nearly impossible to say which is right or true. I'm Anglican in my theology, which some describe as being built on a three-legged stool of Scripture, Reason, and Tradition. So, for me, authority always goes through those 3 lenses.
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Many Jewish agree with you. They believe the Jewish call to prayer is all about this. It starts:

Hear O Israel. The Lord or God. His name is One.

It ends with :

On that day, His name will be One and the World will be One."

For thousands of years, many have thought this to mean that different peoples will believe different things. When they realize they are believing in the same deity and the theories on life, that will be the time they are with God.

When they realize their beliefs are equal and share in the same ideals, there will be heaven on Earth.
 
The bible can mean pretty much whatever you want it to mean as this thread indicates.
 
Wrangor said:
Pay attention to God instead of the Bible? That leads to exactly every problem the church has. Mainly there is no standard because anyone can say 'God told me to do it'.

-----

God told me to bomb the abortion shelter.

God told me to hate gays.

God told me to only give to those who are responsible with the gift.

------

What we need to do as a Christian culture is to quit creating our own God and use the only true resource we have that tells is about Him in His own words. Every time I think I can't disagree with you more you surprise me.

I can't imagine a Christian life in which one of the objectives is move oneself further away from a biblical definition of God.
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Sadly, people do those things which you listed above by relying on the Bible.

I think you might be overreacting to what Rev is saying. I don't see him saying that Christians should move away from the Bible, but rather God is bigger than a book written by flawed men, even if they were inspired by God in what they wrote. I don't see that as an arguable point. Clearly, the entirety of an eternal being that created the cosmos and knows every hair on your head cannot be reduced to writing. That shouldn't take away the significance of the Bible to Christians, but rather serve to highlight the magnificence of the God they serve.

(but, maybe I read all of it wrong and I'm way off)
 
I see what he is saying. I just disagree. The bible doesn't reduce anything about God. If anything the Bible reduces us. Perhaps that is the issue.
 
Wrangor said:
I see what he is saying. I just disagree. The bible doesn't reduce anything about God. If anything the Bible reduces us. Perhaps that is the issue.
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Technically the bible doesn't really do anything. It's words on pages. Unless you think it's some sort of spellbook. Things happen because of man's interaction with the bible. The Holy Spirit is an actual actor in traditional Christian theology.
 
tjcmd said:
Ayn Rand told us this, not God. But you can't expect a blessing from God if you are financing iniquity.
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I have no idea what this means. Financing iniquity? Does that come with a Scarlett letter I ?
 
Wrangor said:
I have no idea what this means. Financing iniquity? Does that come with a Scarlett letter I ?
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You could be having a discussion on the mating habits of African Swallows and said poster would relate it back to extreme economic libertarianism.
 
Les Grossman said:
Sadly, people do those things which you listed above by relying on the Bible.

I think you might be overreacting to what Rev is saying. I don't see him saying that Christians should move away from the Bible, but rather God is bigger than a book written by flawed men, even if they were inspired by God in what they wrote. I don't see that as an arguable point. Clearly, the entirety of an eternal being that created the cosmos and knows every hair on your head cannot be reduced to writing. That shouldn't take away the significance of the Bible to Christians, but rather serve to highlight the magnificence of the God they serve.

(but, maybe I read all of it wrong and I'm way off)
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Exactly.
 
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