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Putin trying to restore the USSR

Strickland33 said:
Change my mind then, simos. I'm not ready to write you off without giving you a shot. It sounds like you have been paying attention and have some thoughts. I have been paying attention, too, and would like to hear your thoughts.
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+1
 
ONW said:
We've spent 15 years fighting two wars, international terrorism, and rebuilding every country we destroy. I think he saw an opportunity the entire time.
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By the way, Putin started his movement towards Georgia while W was POTUS.

Then there was this: http://abcnews.go.com/International/obama-extends-sanctions-russia-ukraine-crisis/story?id=37362950

"The sanctions, along with those imposed by the E.U., have had an effect on Russia, exacerbating an economic downturn prompted by low oil prices that has pushed the country into recession. The measures have created serious difficulties for some of Russia’s largest state companies, including key state banks, that have been unable to access Western financing.

Perhaps even more damaging for the Russian economy, the sanctions have significantly chilled foreign investment in the country, with many investors wary that Russia may be headed into further economic isolation and spooked that another geopolitical crisis might lie in wait for Moscow.

Even companies not directly affected by the sanctions have curtailed their business and many Russian companies are struggling to attract investment or foreign partnerships.

The E.U. will review its own sanctions in June, with some members of the bloc pushing for the sanctions to be eased. The U.S. extension of its own measures is now expected to harden resolve among some European countries to resist this."
 
Strickland33 said:
Change my mind then, simos. I'm not ready to write you off without giving you a shot. It sounds like you have been paying attention and have some thoughts. I have been paying attention, too, and would like to hear your thoughts.
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+2
 
Okay, I'll bite. Here is the Reader's Digest version. Putin is an ex-KGB guy. He is brutal, a bully and a crook. For the past 15 years he has always been about restoring the Soviet Union, de facto if not de jure. Russia has always been insecure about its borders. The Russian people have never known democracy and they are afraid of it. They respond to tough guys like Putin. I think he probably is pretty popular. But the Russian economy is in the toilet. So Putin is following the time honored approach of generating national pride through a bellicose foreign policy. Obama came into office promising a reset. The relationship according to him had drifted into adversity. There would be a win win because we would all get along. Problem is Putin is a thug who only respects power and he rightly realized that Obama could be pushed around. He has played Obama for a chump since day one and Obama hasn't stood up to him. Just like in the 1800's Russia has started invading its neighbors. Our allies have started to try to ally themselves with Russia. The eastern European capitals are running scared, and Putin has made Obama look silly in Syria. Our allies have started to try to curry favor with Russia because they see which way the wind is blowing. I have no idea if Trump thinks he can charm Putin--Trump has said some things that suggest he thinks so. If he does he is as wrong as Obama has been. But to suggest that this hasn't been going on for the past 8 years is asinine.
 
simosfrostyone said:
Okay, I'll bite. Here is the Reader's Digest version. Putin is an ex-KGB guy. He is brutal, a bully and a crook. For the past 15 years he has always been about restoring the Soviet Union, de facto if not de jure. Russia has always been insecure about its borders. The Russian people have never known democracy and they are afraid of it. They respond to tough guys like Putin. I think he probably is pretty popular. But the Russian economy is in the toilet. So Putin is following the time honored approach of generating national pride through a bellicose foreign policy. Obama came into office promising a reset. The relationship according to him had drifted into adversity. There would be a win win because we would all get along. Problem is Putin is a thug who only respects power and he rightly realized that Obama could be pushed around. He has played Obama for a chump since day one and Obama hasn't stood up to him. Just like in the 1800's Russia has started invading its neighbors. Our allies have started to try to ally themselves with Russia. The eastern European capitals are running scared, and Putin has made Obama look silly in Syria. Our allies have started to try to curry favor with Russia because they see which way the wind is blowing. I have no idea if Trump thinks he can charm Putin--Trump has said some things that suggest he thinks so. If he does he is as wrong as Obama has been. But to suggest that this hasn't been going on for the past 8 years is asinine.
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You were doing so well till this part. To insinuate this has only been going on for the last 8 years is asinine.
 
ONW said:
You were doing so well till this part. To insinuate this has only been going on for the last 8 years is asinine.
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Didn't say or insinuate that. How about this: To suggest that this hasn't been going on for at least 8 years...? Because I'll freely admit that GWB also thought he could bring out the good in Putin. And there isn't any.
 
simosfrostyone said:
Didn't say or insinuate that. How about this: To suggest that this hasn't been going on for at least 8 years...? Because I'll freely admit that GWB also thought he could bring out the good in Putin. And there isn't any.
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Agreed.
 
Simo said this: "He has played Obama for a chump since day one and Obama hasn't stood up to him. "

How is organizing the EU and the US to put extraordinary sanctions that drove Russia into a massive recession "not standing up to him"? The giant NATO exercises in Poland were a direct and intentional insult to Putin. But that's not standing up to Putin either.

On the other hand, Trump has been kissing Putin's ass for years. He even had a top Putin political operative as his Chief of Staff. Another Putin supporter on Trump's staff has been promising to end the sanctions.

If you don't think the former leader of the KGB isn't going to call in Trump's debt to him for doing the Wikileaks hacks, you are living in a dream world.
 
I must have missed this thread during the 2012 election

And yes if the NEW RUSSIA really is a threat (it is not) then that is all on Obama. For better or worse he's allowed Russia to do what it wants in its sphere of influence for the last couple years.
 
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RJKarl said:
Simo said this: "He has played Obama for a chump since day one and Obama hasn't stood up to him. "

How is organizing the EU and the US to put extraordinary sanctions that drove Russia into a massive recession "not standing up to him"? The giant NATO exercises in Poland were a direct and intentional insult to Putin. But that's not standing up to Putin either.

On the other hand, Trump has been kissing Putin's ass for years. He even had a top Putin political operative as his Chief of Staff. Another Putin supporter on Trump's staff has been promising to end the sanctions.

If you don't think the former leader of the KGB isn't going to call in Trump's debt to him for doing the Wikileaks hacks, you are living in a dream world.
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A massive recession that allowed Putin to paint the West as the oppressor of the Soviet Union, rally his base around him, and give him even more power. No longer was their shit show of an economy to blame, it was the West and its sanctions.

Do you see Putin losing power in the next 3-5 years? Also how is this working in Iran? If anything we're in their pocket at this point thanks to ISIS.

I'm glad that Obama has kept us out of any real new conflicts, and I would love for us to let Russia take our spot as the Great Satan, but to pretend that he has flexed any sort of hard line muscle as a president is fucking wrong.
 
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A dictator who jails his opponents doesn't lose power.

I didn't say he fixed anything. I said it was mistaken to say he didn't stand up to Putin.
 
RJKarl said:
A dictator who jails his opponents doesn't lose power.

I didn't say he fixed anything. I said it was mistaken to say he didn't stand up to Putin.
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If Obama and his crew couldn't have predicted that as an outcome of their actions than they are even more amateur hour than was originally implied
 
So what should Obama have done differently with respect to Putin?
 
TuffaloDeac10 said:
Think Putin's aim is something more like the Russian Empire than the USSR
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Much closer to the truth than anything RJ has posted. Putin is a Russian nationalist and a pragmatist, besides being a rather intelligent former KGB agent. Reincorporating territories along the current borders of Russia, where the majority of the population is Russian is hardly surprising on the part of Russia or unexpected. Indeed, it constitutes an inevitable part of the mess left by the breakup of the Soviet Union. But it is not merely as threatening to the US, the world, or Russia's neighbors as the former Soviet Union was. What is so difficult to understand about this?
 
Putin can be dealt with. He isn't a maniac. But he needs to be made to understand there are limits beyond which he cannot go. It is possible to do this.
 
How long before Putin's divisions hit the shores of America?

Why are the problems in Eastern Europe worthy of putting American lives on the line when the EU has the advantage over Russia in terms of prosperity and manpower? Trump was right but would not carry the point to its conclusion. Let the Europeans deal with Ukraine and the Baltic States. BTW, tell me what the latter bring to NATO other than a tripwire for a major international conflict with Russia?
 
He seems to have a great deal of respect for our incoming President. That's a nice change.
U.S. President-elect Donald Trump is a clever man and will quickly understand his new responsibilities, Russian President Vladimir Putin said in an interview with NTV TV.

Putin has spoken previously of his hope that Trump will help restore U.S.-Russia relations, and analysts said he was unlikely to want to dial up anti-Western rhetoric before Trump's inauguration in January.

"Trump was an entrepreneur and a businessman. He is already a statesman, he is the head of the United States of America, one of the world's leading countries," NTV quoted Putin as saying in the interview on www.ntv.ru on Sunday.

"Because he achieved success in business, it suggests that he is a clever man. And if (he is) a clever man, then he will fully and quite quickly understand another level of responsibility. We assume that he will be acting from these positions," Putin said.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-putin-idUSKBN13T0B7
 
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