Retired US Soccer / World Cup Thread (RIP)

[siff]

LOL. If US Soccer was effectively reaching out to Latinos and developing them, we wouldn't be in this situation, would we?

The simplicity of siff and Brasky's takes seem to ignore that if they're talking about Latinos growing up in the US in the pay to play system.

Hey soccer genius, exactly what was simple in my takes? Enlighten me, doc.

 

[Screamindemon3]

LOL. If US Soccer was effectively reaching out to Latinos and developing them, we wouldn't be in this situation, would we?

The simplicity of siff and Brasky's takes seem to ignore that if they're talking about Latinos growing up in the US in the pay to play system.

Which Latino country has won a World Cup again?

 

[PhDeac]

Hey soccer genius, exactly what was simple in my takes? Enlighten me, doc.

The assumption that Hispanic kids growing up in the US aren't in the same flawed system.

 

[siff]

The assumption that Hispanic kids growing up in the US aren't in the same flawed system.

Where did I say that?

 

[PhDeac]

Which Latino country has won a World Cup again?

Countries aren't Latino. If you're talking about Latin American countries, Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay have won World Cups. Not sure of your point.

 

[PhDeac]

I believe it's called "the hispanic community"

This affirmation of Brasky's post.

 

[siff]

This affirmation of Brasky's post.

My God, you're such a troll. Your students must love you.

Brasky: "he best part of PH and ELC's income/race based hot takes are that they completely ignore the interests of the largest ethnic minority group in our country"
PhDeac: "explain"

I informed you that he was referring to the hispanic community. I neither affirmed nor denied the thoughts that went into his post.

Let's get back on track - we need your plan, PhDeac, for world futbol domination. If only we'd had your help earlier!

 

[vadimivich]

Countries aren't Latino. If you're talking about Latin American countries, Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay have won World Cups. Not sure of your point.

The only non-Latin language speaking countries to ever win the WC are Germany and England. The entire sport globally is enormously dominated by some variation of Mediterranean / Iberian cultures and their descendents - 14 of the 20 World Cups have been won by Italian / Spanish / Portuguese speaking countries.

 

[BillBrasky]

Explain.

A 100% middle income sport in a country with a shrinking middle class and rising inequality is not a recipe for success.

I have no idea what a middle income sport is (tbf I believe this was DV7's terminology) but soccer certainly isn't it. If anything its played by the extremes of the income spectrum. There are millions of poor kids in this country who eat, breathe and live soccer. Our current system just does a poor job of uncovering and developing that talent.

The idea that American soccer needs to expand its domestic interest base in order to succeed is archaic and tired. We have the participation and resources. We just need to use them efficiently.

 

[DistrictDeacon]

I have no idea what a middle income sport is (tbf I believe this was DV7's terminology) but soccer certainly isn't it. If anything its played by the extremes of the income spectrum. There are millions of poor kids in this country who eat, breathe and live soccer. Our current system just does a poor job of uncovering and developing that talent.

The idea that American soccer needs to expand its domestic interest base in order to succeed is archaic and tired. We have the participation and resources. We just need to use them efficiently.

We have the participation of the middle to upper classes.

 

[BillBrasky]

And the first step in doing that is to decentralize development. As Vad pointed out the USSF only cares about developing quantity, and not quality. If you allow MLS and local academies to profit from the development of their players, than that will change.

Here's a good interview that Eric Wynalda gave on a sports talk radio show yesterday that I podcast. He get right to the heart of the problem. If you actually care and have 14 mins, listen to it:

https://am570lasports.iheart.com/fe...-wynalda-reacts-to-us-soccers-latest-setback/

 

[DistrictDeacon]

Kids at young ages sign contracts of varying forms at professional clubs in their area, and the clubs then can profit off the players development later on (when they are transfered to a bigger team, etc).

This encourages the clubs to focus on development of the players, since their income stream is tied to producing good players. US clubs revenue streams are largely based on having enough players paying money to belong, and that's just ass backwards.

Take for example Toni Kroos in Germany. He started as a kid playing for Griefswalder SV 04 in his tiny hometown near the Polish border. When he was 12 he moved to Hansa Rostock, a bigger club. When he was 16 he moved again to Bayern Munich and Rostock got a cool €2.5m (Griefswalder then received a portion of that for developing him as a child).

Everyone on the chain had a financial incentive to make sure Kroos improved and maximized his talent, not to just get paid by his parents.

So basically the US needs a system where the top-tier clubs, starting from the youngest ages, don't rely on player dues to fund their activities, but instead payments from eventual professional contracts.

 

[skinnydeac]

I believe it's called "the hispanic community"

Some of the better rural high schools have at least 60% hispanic soccer teams that mercy rule the other rural teams nearly every game, but there is no classic or premier program nearby for them to play on. It is pretty obvious when they play top level urban schools whose teams play year round on travel teams.

I think access and geography have a lot to do with US soccer being stuck on a treadmill. The level of competition is so varied based on location, it is hard for the better players to develop and you get a plateau effect.

 

[deacondamo]

So basically the US needs a system where the top-tier clubs, starting from the youngest ages, don't rely on player dues to fund their activities, but instead payments from eventual professional contracts.

But we don't have the transfer system (which I don't really understand how it works anyway), so I'm not sure how the professional team could profit off of developing the players. The transfer system is weird to me.

Also, NFL, NBA and MLB don't do this, so I'm not sure that the U.S. needs a relegation system (although it would be awesome) and a transfer system in order to make soccer successful in this country.

 

[deacvision7]

There wasn't the academy when I was around, just ODP essentially, above Premiere. A proper academy would just be a self-contained school, but we don't do that shit here really.

Or affiliated with MLS/USL clubs at the very least. And more than just a named sponsorship...

 

[vadimivich]

So basically the US needs a system where the top-tier clubs, starting from the youngest ages, don't rely on player dues to fund their activities, but instead payments from eventual professional contracts.

Pretty much. And a good start would mean our top tier (which includes our own national federation) has to stop using anti-trust law to try and avoid paying the lower clubs once they do sign a player to a professional contract.

Our own federations role in this fucking mess is badly misunderstood. It's not that they are powerless, it's that they directly contribute to it.

Oh, and our federation tells foreign clubs they don't have to pay our youth clubs either. So when Pulisic signed with Dortmund, none of the US youth clubs he played for got compensation. You know who was eligible for a small solidarity payment from Dortmund though? Brackley Town in the UK, because he was in their youth system as a very young kid.

That's seriously fucked.

 

[BillBrasky]

We have the participation of the middle to upper classes.

Followed a twitter link or two to try to figure out the methodology of the report and ended up here:

https://www.sfia.org/reports/512_20...sure-Activities-Topline-Participation-Report-

I'm not paying $245 to prove an e-point, but I suspect this is based off registrations. Something that we can all agree is a barrier for entry for lower income kids. But that doesn't change the fact that lower income Hispanic kids are playing soccer at a very high level. Just not within the single-entity structure that has become the modus operandi of the USSF.

Anyways lunch break is over. So I'll stop here. I assume my point is clear.

 

[deacvision7]

I have no idea what a middle income sport is (tbf I believe this was DV7's terminology) but soccer certainly isn't it. If anything its played by the extremes of the income spectrum. There are millions of poor kids in this country who eat, breathe and live soccer. Our current system just does a poor job of uncovering and developing that talent.

The idea that American soccer needs to expand its domestic interest base in order to succeed is archaic and tired. We have the participation and resources. We just need to use them efficiently.

That just isn't true.

 

[deacvision7]

Some of the better rural high schools have at least 60% hispanic soccer teams that mercy rule the other rural teams nearly every game, but there is no classic or premier program nearby for them to play on. It is pretty obvious when they play top level urban schools whose teams play year round on travel teams.

I think access and geography have a lot to do with US soccer being stuck on a treadmill. The level of competition is so varied based on location, it is hard for the better players to develop and you get a plateau effect.

This is an absolutely fantastic point. Well said.

 

[TripleDeacon]

That participation chart is a bit confusing though. How is "participation" defined?

My daughter is knee deep in club soccer right now at the U14 level. It's expensive and I have absolutely no doubt that the costs keep a lot of very good players away, even with the scholarships. Our club, Greensboro United, has them as well and they're funded through a nonprofit foundation. I would imagine just about every club does this in some form or fashion. On my daughter's team of 18 players, I'd guess one, maybe two, might be receiving assistance. That's it.

But there is another form of participation that's out there and that is the more informal variety. I know here in High Point there is an entire league created and managed by the Hispanic community. My daughter's first real coach is Peruvian and he would have our all girls team play against these teams (usually all boys, sometimes co-ed) for extra work. The level of play was at least equivalent to classic, I'd estimate, and the skills, style and creativity was even higher. We'd almost always get beat, but you get sharp teeth chewing on rocks. Getting all of those players - and there are a lot - into the USMNT development machine is the challenge, but there's definitely a ton of potential.