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So how exactly did this happen?

PhDeac said:
Yep. He seems to believe that legal citizens are just as skilled and willing to do those jobs.
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I know it's an unpleasant truth, and you all would rather live in a fantasy land where you can flood the country with millions of new workers and native born citizens aren't harmed, but when you have a surplus of labor for a given job, there is no pressure on employers to increase benefits/wages. Immigration creates winners and losers. The winners are the immigrants and the employers who benefit from a larger pool of workers and reduced pay. The losers are the American people who are competing with immigrants for those jobs. That's reality.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
lol at the idea that JH would take a job as cashier at kmart or trimming trees
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JH doesn't have to take one of those jobs. He already has a job. The question was why wouldn't people who do not have a job take one of those jobs.

And everyone knows the answer to that question.
 
warak said:
didn't we learn this lesson under Bush? some jobs here American Americans just don't want to do, despite being unemployed.
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This is not true.
Of the 472 civilian occupations, only six are majority immigrant (legal and illegal). These six occupations account for 1 percent of the total U.S. workforce. Moreover, native-born Americans still comprise 46 percent of workers even in these occupations.

Many jobs often thought to be overwhelmingly immigrant (legal and illegal) are in fact majority native-born:
Maids and housekeepers: 51 percent native-born
Taxi drivers and chauffeurs: 58 percent native-born
Butchers and meat processors: 63 percent native-born
Grounds maintenance workers: 64 percent native-born
Construction laborers: 66 percent native-born
Porters, bellhops, and concierges: 72 percent native-born
Janitors: 73 percent native-born
Natives tend to have high unemployment in high-immigrant occupations, averaging 14 percent during the 2009-2011 period, compared to 8 percent in the rest of the labor market. There were a total of 2.6 million unemployed native-born Americans in high-immigrant occupations.
http://cis.org/are-there-really-jobs-americans-wont-do
 
bobknightfan said:
JH doesn't have to take one of those jobs. He already has a job. The question was why wouldn't people who do not have a job take one of those jobs.

And everyone knows the answer to that question.
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i thought we were talking about "skilled" Americans who lose their job to Chinese manufacturers, for example, who are now asked to pick fruit and dig ditches
 
warak, how would you like it if the country was suddenly flooded with hundreds of thousands of people who could do your job and would do it for less than you. Would you think that was unfair as you were shown the door? What would you think of the people telling you to shut up and go back to school and learn some other skill?
 
bobknightfan said:
JH doesn't have to take one of those jobs. He already has a job. The question was why wouldn't people who do not have a job take one of those jobs.

And everyone knows the answer to that question.
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Enter the dishonest deflection already in progress, supra and infra.

It's a small wonder that the working class is more skeptical of the benevolence bestowed on them by Elite Dems, isn't it?
 
jhmd2000 said:
Enter the dishonest deflection already in progress, supra and infra.
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what was I deflecting? I'm asked an honest question. We're suggesting there are open "jobs" for Americans but they just won't do those jobs and I'm pointing out that guys like JH would never deign to take a job like that.
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
I know it's an unpleasant truth, and you all would rather live in a fantasy land where you can flood the country with millions of new workers and native born citizens aren't harmed, but when you have a surplus of labor for a given job, there is no pressure on employers to increase benefits/wages. Immigration creates winners and losers. The winners are the immigrants and the employers who benefit from a larger pool of workers and reduced pay. The losers are the American people who are competing with immigrants for those jobs. That's reality.
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So your argument is that tomato farmers will pay American workers a higher salary and benefits to pick tomatoes even though it severely cuts into their profits?

No.

Those tomato farmers will either automate or get out of farming. All three of those options would make tomatoes more expensive which affects everybody.
 
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BobStackFan4Life said:
In 2000, 8 percent of prime-age men didn’t work at all. Today, that number is 13 percent. There are about 50 million men in this age group, so that around 2.5 million prime-age men have joined the rank of permanent joblessness since 2000.
https://gborjas.org/2016/12/26/where-did-native-working-men-go/#more-5659
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It would be a mistake to interpret the graph as suggesting a causal link between immigration and the dramatic rise in permanent joblessness among native men. But the data clearly suggest that if one wishes to understand the economic dissatisfaction that motivated a lot of the political action this year, this graph would not be a bad place to start. It may be that: “It’s all jobs, stupid.”
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That graph shows the same trend among native men and immigrant men. That suggest changes in the economy coming out of the economic downturn affected both groups. There is a lower percentage of jobless immigrants because they're more likely to leave the country after leaving the labor pool.
 
ImTheCaptain said:
what was I deflecting? I'm asked an honest question. We're suggesting there are open "jobs" for Americans but they just won't do those jobs and I'm pointing out that guys like JH would never deign to take a job like that.
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As noted, neither I nor anyone here is at meaningful risk of losing my employment to an illegal immigrant. It is from this perch that more than a few posters can feign interest in the plight of those that are, and then quickly move on.

The Trump voters who have lost their jobs to the failed policies of both parties DO feel that pain, and since neither party could be bothered to speak to their concerns, somebody did, and it worked out.
 
PhDeac said:
So your argument is that tomato farmers will pay American workers a higher salary and benefits to pick tomatoes even though it severely cuts into their profits?
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Perish the thought, Americans doing manual labor making an extra nickel or two. The horror. NPR had a report a while back where they interviewed citrus farmers in Florida who were pro-immigration. The guy said his father had some workers who wanted an extra nickel per hour and he refused to pay them what they wanted. So they went and worked for someone else who was willing to pay it. He said at that point they became strongly for immigration. Why? Well it's clear. They wanted to keep their labor costs as low as possible and immigration allows employers to do that. That is the surplus generated by immigrants and employers are the beneficiaries. Meanwhile the rest of the nation is subsidizing this redistribution scheme in terms of social costs (immigrants use welfare at a much higher rate than native born citizens), reduced wages, increased competition for jobs, etc.
 
You didn't answer the question.
 
PhDeac said:
That graph shows the same trend among native men and immigrant men. That suggest changes in the economy coming out of the economic downturn affected both groups. There is a lower percentage of jobless immigrants because they're more likely to leave the country after leaving the labor pool.
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To be fair to BSF, I don't think he is concerned with the unemployment rate of illegal immigrants. I think the problem extends to the presence of illegal immigrant competition for work. In his mindset, any competition from illegals is a negative, no matter how the economy is doing.
 
2012-phc-labor-report-01.png
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
To be fair to BSF, I don't think he is concerned with the unemployment rate of illegal immigrants. I think the problem extends to the presence of illegal immigrant competition for work. In his mindset, any competition from illegals is a negative, no matter how the economy is doing.
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That wasn't the point I was making. My point was that the graph doesn't make the case that the immigrant job rates are a causal factor in native joblessness.
 
BobStackFan4Life said:
Yes I did.
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No. You didn't. Re-read the question and your response. I asked you to describe what tomato farming would look like without immigrant workers and described what it looks like with immigrant farmers.
 
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