So how exactly did this happen?

[BobStackFan4Life]

That graph shows the same trend among native men and immigrant men. That suggest changes in the economy coming out of the economic downturn affected both groups. There is a lower percentage of jobless immigrants because they're more likely to leave the country after leaving the labor pool.

I didn't say there was a causal link in this instance, I was just posting the article because it gives a clue as to why so many are dissatisfied, but I suppose given we were just talking about immigration you figured that's what I was suggesting.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

That wasn't the point I was making. My point was that the graph doesn't make the case that the immigrant job rates are a causal factor in native joblessness.

I don't think the analytical limitations of that study are super important. If there is rampant unemployment among working age people you have to recognize how illegal immigrant competition factors into that. The Obama/Clinton tagline of "everything is great, look how good the economy is" doesn't really capture the anxiety and dissatisfaction of all the unemployed.

 

[BobStackFan4Life]

No. You didn't. Re-read the question and your response. I asked you to describe what tomato farming would look like without immigrant workers and described what it looks like with immigrant farmers.

If you can't deduce my answer from that response I feel for you. You said:
"So your argument is that tomato farmers will pay American workers a higher salary and benefits to pick tomatoes even though it severely cuts into their profits?"

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I recognize that Hillary was intent on riding Obama's coattails, but her campaign really lost the farm by ignoring and denying the true unemployment rate.

 

[BobStackFan4Life]

Asians and Hispanics were kicking ass after the recession. Whites and especially blacks, not so much.

 

[PhDeac]

If you can't deduce my answer from that response I feel for you. You said:
"So your argument is that tomato farmers will pay American workers a higher salary and benefits to pick tomatoes even though it severely cuts into their profits?"

And you didn't say what tomato farmers would do without immigrants. You said they want to keep labor costs as low as possible. So then what will they do to accomplish that?

Perish the thought, Americans doing manual labor making an extra nickel or two. The horror. NPR had a report a while back where they interviewed citrus farmers in Florida who were pro-immigration. The guy said his father had some workers who wanted an extra nickel per hour and he refused to pay them what they wanted. So they went and worked for someone else who was willing to pay it. He said at that point they became strongly for immigration. Why? Well it's clear. They wanted to keep their labor costs as low as possible and immigration allows employers to do that. That is the surplus generated by immigrants and employers are the beneficiaries. Meanwhile the rest of the nation is subsidizing this redistribution scheme in terms of social costs (immigrants use welfare at a much higher rate than native born citizens), reduced wages, increased competition for jobs, etc.

 

[PhDeac]

I recognize that Hillary was intent on riding Obama's coattails, but her campaign really lost the farm by ignoring and denying the true unemployment rate.

Last time I looked the true unemployment rate is back to what it was before the recession.

 

[BobStackFan4Life]

Asians and Hispanics were kicking ass after the recession. Whites and especially blacks, not so much.

Actually, looking at that chart, it looks like although blacks were hurt the worst in the recession, they did slightly better than whites when it came to the recovery, at least in the early years.

 

[bobknightfan]

No. You didn't. Re-read the question and your response. I asked you to describe what tomato farming would look like without immigrant workers and described what it looks like with immigrant farmers.

Let me ask you a few questions about this situation, PH:

1) Does illegal immigration depress wage levels paid to workers in this industry?

2) If all of a sudden there were no illegal immigrant workers available for these jobs, do you think these companies would not hire American workers....even if they had to pay slightly higher wages? (I'm not talking $15/hour BS here.)

And now, back to the elephant in the room that liberals don't want to talk about:

3) Why would American workers who do not have a job not take those jobs.....even if they were paying only marginally higher wages than what illegal immigrants had been receiving?

(Hint: #3 is the question where everyone already knows the answer.)

 

[jhmd2000]

Let me ask you a few questions about this situation, PH:

1) Does illegal immigration depress wage levels paid to workers in this industry?

2) If all of a sudden there were no illegal immigrant workers available for these jobs, do you think these companies would not hire American workers....even if they had to pay slightly higher wages? (I'm not talking $15/hour BS here.)

And now, back to the elephant in the room that liberals don't want to talk about:

3) Why would American workers who do not have a job not take those jobs.....even if they were paying only marginally higher wages than what illegal immigrants had been receiving?

(Hint: #3 is the question where everyone already knows the answer.)

Remember, they care so much for the working poor and non-working poor, that they will refuse to answer this question. They care THAT MUCH.

 

[Deacfreak07]

Let me ask you a few questions about this situation, PH:

1) Does illegal immigration depress wage levels paid to workers in this industry?

2) If all of a sudden there were no illegal immigrant workers available for these jobs, do you think these companies would not hire American workers....even if they had to pay slightly higher wages? (I'm not talking $15/hour BS here.)

And now, back to the elephant in the room that liberals don't want to talk about:

3) Why would American workers who do not have a job not take those jobs.....even if they were paying only marginally higher wages than what illegal immigrants had been receiving?

(Hint: #3 is the question where everyone already knows the answer.)

What wages did you have in mind for #2, because the answer to #3 is probably contingent on that. If someone loses benefits and doesn't substitute a living wage, it's not financially viable for them to take that job. The reality is that there are costs to employment, childcare, loss of benefits, etc. I know that means nothing to you, because your response is "tough shit, you should procreate", but that is the reality people face.

 

[ThinkingWithMyDeac]

I thought the problem was in the rust belt, lot of immigrant job stealers there? Also thought the problem was in rural America, lot more immigrants there than cities?

List of reasons why someone can't get a job, number one is uneducated. After that it's automation. After that it is cheap labor overseas. Finally it's immigration.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

I thought the problem was in the rust belt, lot of immigrant job stealers there? Also thought the problem was in rural America, lot more immigrants there than cities?

List of reasons why someone can't get a job, number one is uneducated. After that it's automation. After that it is cheap labor overseas. Finally it's immigration.

We have reached a point in our economy where we can experience positive growth without a relatively equal amount of employment growth. So our politicians have to approach the economy from both sides if they want to stay in office. On a macro scale, illegal immigration is net positive for our economy. On a micro economic scale for the individual working class poor, unemployed and under-employed it is a topic of anxiety and aggravation and millions of presidential votes will be contingent upon how candidates address the topic.

 

[warak]

Wow, this thread has gotten interesting since I left.

1. No, I don't think most Americans will do manual labor in produce fields. I remember 10 years ago that fields were left to spoil because of the lack of laborers (after Bush cut down on immigrants, can research later, I just got home). I think mainly the price doesn't get high enough, especially if they get any government money. It's just hard damn work for shit pay...not the American way.

2.i am irreplaceable Bob

 

[WFFaithful]

A closed factory in Michigan isn't a theory to the people who lost their jobs, champ. The paychecks written at new plants in the South aren't fictional either. Congrats again on the popular vote.

Might want to catch up on today's news. Trump brought 700 auto jobs to MICHIGAN from Mexico.

 

[bobknightfan]

What wages did you have in mind for #2, because the answer to #3 is probably contingent on that. If someone loses benefits and doesn't substitute a living wage, it's not financially viable for them to take that job. The reality is that there are costs to employment, childcare, loss of benefits, etc. I know that means nothing to you, because your response is "tough shit, you should procreate", but that is the reality people face.

How do they have benefits to lose if they don't have a job?

 

[jhmd2000]

How do they have benefits to lose if they don't have a job?

"You see, what had happened was,..."

 

[Deacfreak07]

How do they have benefits to lose if they don't have a job?

Government assistance. Call it whatever you would like. It's a reality for a lot of folks just trying to get by.

 

[bobknightfan]

Government assistance. Call it whatever you would like. It's a reality for a lot of folks just trying to get by.[/QUOTE

Oh, I missed that one. We come from two different mindsets and were thinking about two different types of benefits. I was thinking about job-related benefits. You were thinking about welfare benefits. Silly me. I should have known. No reason to take a job as long as the government will take care of you.

 

[Deacfreak07]

Government assistance. Call it whatever you would like. It's a reality for a lot of folks just trying to get by.[/QUOTE

Oh, I missed that one. We come from two different mindsets and were thinking about two different types of benefits. I was thinking about job-related benefits. You were thinking about welfare benefits. Silly me. I should have known. No reason to take a job as long as the government will take care of you.

That isn't what I said, but it's on me for being stupid enough to try to have a conversation with you in the first place. Carry on.