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Specific problems with specific welfare programs and how to fix them

Liquid Karma said:
Promoting a child who isn't ready just passes the problem on to the teacher at the next grade level, who then has less time to spend on the more qualified kids.

It's a shitty problem.
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My wife deals with it every day. The school system gets these projections done on all of her kids that show their likelihood of passing EOG based on prior tests, grades, etc. If you add up all the percentages of the 60 kids she teaches (3 classes) it's something criminally low. I don't want to misquote it but I think it's something like a 30% pass rate. And the school system is basically like, Good luck, Teach!
 
To answer the OP, the problem isn't with the welfare programs as they are per se, the problem is with the systems that surround it. Use government to level the playing field in those systems, and the government shrinks.

Nobody wants there to be a need for welfare/entitlements, despite the theory that democrats want/use them to create a secure voting bloc.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Once a kid is held back two school years they should be taken out of public school and placed in a remedial/vocational skills program.

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I have also always wondered if you could tie welfare benefits to graduation from high school (except for special circumstances). If you drop of high school just because you are tired of going to school then your benefits are reduced if you need to draw from the government. Might give some motivation for kids to stay in school, and would give the teachers a punishment that actually meant something. If throwing a kid out of school meant he lost money in the future if he couldn't find a job, it might give the kid a little more motivation to stick it out in math class. Obviously everyone currently in school would be grandfathered in, but you could start with the next generation being born, and just make it a requirement. Graduate high school or get a GED in order to get the top level of help if you should need it. If you drop out early you get a reduced amount. Too harsh?
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
Once a kid is held back two school years they should be taken out of public school and placed in a remedial/vocational skills program.

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I say if they don't meet requirements at the end of the school year, put them in an intensive summer program. If that doesn't work, take them out of schools.

Letting problem kids fester in the same atmosphere that didn't work before while potentially being a negative influence on younger kids is no solution. It's just lazy.
 
PhDeac said:
I say if they don't meet requirements at the end of the school year, put them in an intensive summer program. If that doesn't work, take them out of schools.

Letting problem kids fester in the same atmosphere that didn't work before while potentially being a negative influence on younger kids is no solution. It's just lazy.
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I like this. Could you combine finishing high school/GED with an incentive program for the future? Could be positive and negative:

Positive: If you graduate high school you get 2 years of free junior college education.

Negative: If you drop out of school without extenuating circumstances (ie: you just don't care, don't try, or have behavioral issues) you are penalized in some manner.

Provide a carrot for the kids that are looking for an excuse to try, and provide the whip for those who need some motivation to keep themselves in line.
 
The way to reach kids who don't care about school or have the resources to do well in school is definitely to penalize them. That'll really light a fire.
 
Wrangor said:
I have also always wondered if you could tie welfare benefits to graduation from high school (except for special circumstances). If you drop of high school just because you are tired of going to school then your benefits are reduced if you need to draw from the government. Might give some motivation for kids to stay in school, and would give the teachers a punishment that actually meant something. If throwing a kid out of school meant he lost money in the future if he couldn't find a job, it might give the kid a little more motivation to stick it out in math class. Obviously everyone currently in school would be grandfathered in, but you could start with the next generation being born, and just make it a requirement. Graduate high school or get a GED in order to get the top level of help if you should need it. If you drop out early you get a reduced amount. Too harsh?
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One of the problems with this type of idea is that some kids drop out of school to support their families. My daughter has a classmate who is the only person earning money in the family. If she has to work more to provide for her family she really wouldn't have a choice in the matter.
 
PhDeac said:
Yep. Older kids in lower grades doesn't help anybody especially not the kid.

Nobody wants 7th and 8th graders who drive to school.
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I would say that promoting kids to high school when they can't read or subtract two from five doesn't help anyone either. It hurts the kid as well as all they kids they're in class with going forward. Having to earn promotion rather than simply having it given to you teaches lessons that are extremely important to success in life and provides incentive for kids to learn the material. Most kids don't want to be held back.
 
The Mangler said:
One of the problems with this type of idea is that some kids drop out of school to support their families. My daughter has a classmate who is the only person earning money in the family. If she has to work more to provide for her family she really wouldn't have a choice in the matter.
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great point.

Why not just keep tying welfare to job seeking and job training like it is?
 
The Mangler said:
I would say that promoting kids to high school when they can't read or subtract two from five doesn't help anyone either. It hurts the kid as well as all they kids they're in class with going forward. Having to earn promotion rather than simply having it given to you teaches lessons that are extremely important to success in life and provides incentive for kids to learn the material. Most kids don't want to be held back.
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Why did you ignore what I posted about summer school above?
 
PH, is it common practice in higher education these days that anything less than a grade of C is equivalent to failing and the class needs to be retaken?
 
Depends on the major. It's common in STEM fields.
 
PhDeac said:
I say if they don't meet requirements at the end of the school year, put them in an intensive summer program. If that doesn't work, take them out of schools.

Letting problem kids fester in the same atmosphere that didn't work before while potentially being a negative influence on younger kids is no solution. It's just lazy.
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bigdoublezero said:
The way to reach kids who don't care about school or have the resources to do well in school is definitely to penalize them. That'll really light a fire.
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I don't see my idea as a penalty at all. Once a kid has been held back twice I think it would be better for their own self esteem to leave a environment where they will most likely be stigmatized as "old" or "stupid" for the rest of their days. Anyone who went to a public probably knows that guy who flunked a bunch of times and ended up dropping out and becoming a drug dealer. Maybe we get that 13 year old 7th grader into a more conducive environment instead of letting him fester in 4 more years of public school into a 17 year old delinquent baby daddy.

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PhDeac said:
I say if they don't meet requirements at the end of the school year, put them in an intensive summer program. If that doesn't work, take them out of schools.

Letting problem kids fester in the same atmosphere that didn't work before while potentially being a negative influence on younger kids is no solution. It's just lazy.
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Sorry PH, I didn't look back that far in the thread. Kids who fail a class now, at least in some cases, are required to go to summer school to be promoted. The problem is they aren't required to learn the material, just do their time and they move on. That makes no sense to me. I'm sure it doesn't make sense to you either.

If we can come up with a summer school program that's effective I'm all for it but, as you said, why put them back in the regular school environment, where they festered before, the following year? Why not just keep them in the environment that worked for them during the summer? Cost is probably the answer there, but it doesn't make sense to me to keep them in the environment that doesn't work for 8-9 months only to send them to summer school again.

Personally I wouldn't even require a kid that a kid go to summer school to move on. I don't care how the kids learn, I just care that they are able to demonstrate that they have truly learned the material before being promoted. If a child can score at an acceptable level on an EOG type test before the next school year starts, or for that matter at any time, they should be able to move on. Sort of like creating a GED for each grade.

What are you suggesting when you say take them out of the schools?
 
bmoneydeac said:
My wife deals with it every day. The school system gets these projections done on all of her kids that show their likelihood of passing EOG based on prior tests, grades, etc. If you add up all the percentages of the 60 kids she teaches (3 classes) it's something criminally low. I don't want to misquote it but I think it's something like a 30% pass rate. And the school system is basically like, Good luck, Teach!
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Damn I overestimated. Just looked at the data and on 48 kids that had EVAAS projections, she should expect 8 passing scores. I don't know how she does it.
 
Its the economy, stupid.

Good economy with good wage jobs and upward mobility = smaller welfare rolls.

Bad economy without good wage jobs and upward mobility = larger welfare rolls.

Welfare ain't broken, American is.

Science.
 
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