Tenn. Workers Reject Union at Auto Plant

[BillBrasky]

Explain to me how tax subsidies and this union intervention are not interfering in the free market please. Thanks.

It is. Just like providing tax subsidies for companies. Using your definition of the word interfere, Republicans openly and freely interfere all the time. They promise to do it while they are campaigning.

So once again, what I'm saying is that this created narrative of the GOP stating that they never interfere in the free market is WRONG. 100% wrong. Its just another simpleton DONK response that was created by people who's only intention is to be a fucktard. Just like the bootstraps thing you spaz boys always reference.

No (serious) Republican has ever stated that they would ever use their political power to not influence the decisions of businesses. Hell that's why they are in office, to influence the business climate in their respective states/counties/whatever.

And when you add in the fact that the UAW would turn around an use the resources they would skim from the plant's autoworkers to fund the campaigns of their future opponents, of course they got involved. Anybody with half a fucking brain would.

Stop being stupid.

 

[Deacfreak07]

It is. Just like providing tax subsidies for companies. Using your definition of the word interfere, Republicans openly and freely interfere all the time. They promise to do it while they are campaigning.

So once again, what I'm saying is that this created narrative of the GOP stating that they never interfere in the free market is WRONG. 100% wrong. Its just another simpleton DONK response that was created by people who's only intention is to be a fucktard. Just like the bootstraps thing you spaz boys always reference.

No (serious) Republican has ever stated that they would ever use their political power to not influence the decisions of businesses. Hell that's why they are in office, to influence the business climate in their respective states/counties/whatever.

And when you add in the fact that the UAW would turn around an use the resources they would skim from the plant's autoworkers to fund the campaigns of their future opponents, of course they got involved. Anybody with half a fucking brain would.

Stop being stupid.

You're honestly suggesting that the narrative of not wanting government to interfere with the free market is imposed on the GOP by liberals? If that's not what you're suggesting, then I'm really confused as to what you are arguing.

 

[BillBrasky]

You're honestly suggesting that the narrative of not wanting government to interfere with the free market is imposed on the GOP by liberals? If that's not what you're suggesting, then I'm really confused as to what you are arguing.

Using the ridiculous 100% absolutist definition you seem to enjoy throwing around, yes.

Republicans interfere with the free market all day, everyday. The relocation of many businesses to conservative Red states is the main talking point of any southern GOP member worth a damn. And how did they get those companies to relocate? By interfering in the free market. And they are goddamn proud of it.

Now go find a thread about social inequality and respond to every post with the #bootstraps. That will make you feel a lot better. I wouldn't want your Friday to be completely ruined.

 

[Deacfreak07]

Using the ridiculous 100% absolutist definition you seem to enjoy throwing around, yes.

Republicans interfere with the free market all day, everyday. The relocation of many businesses to conservative Red states is the main talking point of any southern GOP member worth a damn. And how did they get those companies to relocate? By interfering in the free market. And they are goddamn proud of it.

Now go find a thread about social inequality and respond to every post with the #bootstraps. That will make you feel a lot better. I wouldn't want your Friday to be completely ruined.

Not sure I've been throwing around any absolutist definition. Assuming that was not my intent, but more of a general principle, do you still believe that narrative is imposed on the GOP?

I really don't feel bad by the way, but I appreciate your concern.

 

[BillBrasky]

You have. And you were following RJ's lead. You should of known then how dumb it would sound.

As for your question, no not generally. Just on here, because you guys enjoy being snide (as do I at times) and for some reason you believe quoting the same pointless and facetious talking point over and over again makes you witty. Or something.

Yes, the GOP does generally favors less government intervention in business matters, but at the end of the day they want to use their power to influence business decisions just as much as the Democrats do. Their both equally full of shit. Neither really gives a fuck about the law. We should all be beaten down and lied to enough to understand that.

Once again, your being intentionally obtuse. You know that. So stop doing it.

 

[Deacfreak07]

Yes, the GOP does generally favors less government intervention in business matters, but at the end of the day they want to use their power to influence business decisions just as much as the Democrats do.

You don't find that hypocritical at all?

 

[BillBrasky]

No, I don't think the GOP has ever said they wouldn't use their influence to encourage workers not to unionize. Especially when the beneficiaries of that unionization would be their future political opponents. Pretty standard stuff to anyone that's ever taken a middle school civics class.

Hell its probably one of the least hypocritical things they or any other politician has done while in office.

 

[Deacfreak07]

No, I don't think the GOP has ever said they wouldn't use their influence to encourage workers not to unionize. Especially when the beneficiaries of that unionization would be their future political opponents. Pretty standard stuff to anyone that's ever taken a middle school civics class.

Hell its probably one of the least hypocritical things they or any other politician has done while in office.

Then we just agree to disagree.

 

[Deacon923]

This is a good article on the situation in Tennessee. I think the "mainstream media" did a poor job informing the public on what really went down there and why. I was unaware that there was a federal law prohibiting German-style worker's councils unless they exist within the context of an organized labor union. Since German-style manufacturing is beating the pants off American unionized manufacturing, probably time to rethink this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/how-to-give-workers-a-voice-without-making-them-join-a-union/284328/

Unfortunately, the unions won't ever allow this to get through Congress because it would be the final nail in their coffin. Plenty of companies would jump on the chance to have a cooperative, non-confrontational worker's council, and plenty of workers would figure out pretty quick that this would be a better path than the legacy unions and their bankrupt pension plans.

 

[FuckmouthedRube]

This is a good article on the situation in Tennessee. I think the "mainstream media" did a poor job informing the public on what really went down there and why. I was unaware that there was a federal law prohibiting German-style worker's councils unless they exist within the context of an organized labor union. Since German-style manufacturing is beating the pants off American unionized manufacturing, probably time to rethink this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/how-to-give-workers-a-voice-without-making-them-join-a-union/284328/

Unfortunately, the unions won't ever allow this to get through Congress because it would be the final nail in their coffin. Plenty of companies would jump on the chance to have a cooperative, non-confrontational worker's council, and plenty of workers would figure out pretty quick that this would be a better path than the legacy unions and their bankrupt pension plans.

GOP would be a lot more viable nationally if they pressed issues like this rather than yammering on about birth certificates or arguing about birth control.

 

[RJKarl]

This is a good article on the situation in Tennessee. I think the "mainstream media" did a poor job informing the public on what really went down there and why. I was unaware that there was a federal law prohibiting German-style worker's councils unless they exist within the context of an organized labor union. Since German-style manufacturing is beating the pants off American unionized manufacturing, probably time to rethink this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/how-to-give-workers-a-voice-without-making-them-join-a-union/284328/

Unfortunately, the unions won't ever allow this to get through Congress because it would be the final nail in their coffin. Plenty of companies would jump on the chance to have a cooperative, non-confrontational worker's council, and plenty of workers would figure out pretty quick that this would be a better path than the legacy unions and their bankrupt pension plans.

The UAW was completely onboard with this structure at VW. They weren't the problem. Politicians didn't want employees to have any power.

Ever think this could be the next evolution in unions? Once it worked somewhere. Other companies would try the same.

Again the problem here isn't the unions who were willing to try it. The problems were politicians and American businesses who want to exploit rather than partner with employees.

 

[PhDeac]

GOP would be a lot more viable nationally if they pressed issues like this rather than yammering on about birth certificates or arguing about birth control.

Pretty much. It should be about finding a constructive way for workers' rights to be represented. 923's suggestion won't happen because the unions don't want a viable alternative and the GOP doesn't want unions or a viable alternative.

 

[FuckmouthedRube]

All but the most myopic union supporters realize that unions in their present form need to be reformed and evolve or they'll become extinct. Talked to a Dem friend this weekend who's very well connected in Sacramento and he said current Mayor Kevin Johnson is extremely popular and can stay Mayor "as long as he wants". This despite KJ being married to Michele Rhee, public enemy number one for teachers' unions who was run out of DC for advocating teacher reform. Sacramento's the most pro-union city in CA. Rhode Island's Dem Treasurer is successfully navigating public pension reform and has a bright political future. Smart Dems with an eye to the future need to shape union reforms. If they don't, they'll lose politically in the long-term.

Labor realizes they aren't big enough to stand alone as a political party and have no home other than the Dem party. Continued stonewalling will just guarantee their extinction. I'm no fan of either labor or social conservatives, but at least labor knows the political terrain better than social conservatives. Social conservatives think they're a lot more mainstream than they are and don't recognize the long-term damage they continue to do to the GOP. Young people detest their social policies. I'll never underestimate the GOP's, Labor's, or Dems' ability to blow it. Whichever group plays their hand best will be the ultimate winner, but all will three have to compromise. The one that takes the most hard line stance will be punished the most.

 

[RJKarl]

Did you even read what I posted? Clearly you didn't.

The UAW didn't stonewall anything. They were willing to change their SOP.

This could be the logical next step in organized labor. It's a hybrid of old and new

There is one downside for some companies. Having a council could mean far less income for CEOs. This is what happens in this model.

 

[Liquid Karma]

I think part of the issue here is that the UAW as a brand is damaged goods. Many workers cited not wanting to be a part of what they perceive to be a part of the failures in places like Detroit.

It seems like a union-like structure that cuts out the UAW is the desired product here, but the UAW has a stranglehold on organized labor due to their relationship with the NLRB.

 

[FuckmouthedRube]

One side of hard liners wants union only jobs, the other hard line side wants no union jobs. The sweet spot is attracting and retaining good paying manufacturing jobs where workers and management have a reasonable working relationship. That environment isn't exclusively accomplished via union or non-union shops.

 

[RJKarl]

This could be a new definition of "union". The UAW didn't love it but were reasonable enough to join with the new concept.

 

[Deacon923]

I think part of the issue here is that the UAW as a brand is damaged goods. Many workers cited not wanting to be a part of what they perceive to be a part of the failures in places like Detroit.

It seems like a union-like structure that cuts out the UAW is the desired product here, but the UAW has a stranglehold on organized labor due to their relationship with the NLRB.

This. The big legacy unions are moribund and damaged goods. Employers and unions both know the employer will win an organizing fight pretty much anywhere except maybe the heart of the rust belt or coal country, even with the most labor-friendly NLRB in a generation. The way unions get new members is top down, by doing deals with the employers or what I've seen, using the pension funds to invest in a company on the condition that the company let them unionize the workforce. Even the unions try to avoid actually having to organize workers, because they know their brand is so damaged hardly anybody wants them around.

 

[RJKarl]

But they didn't do that here. They gave up power. This method should be tried. For those who oppose unions, what the UAW did in TN should be jumped on by the anti-union folks. Once it passes a couple of time, traditional unions will have to embrace or go the way of the blacksmith.

 

[Lectro]

You have. And you were following RJ's lead. You should of known then how dumb it would sound.

As for your question, no not generally. Just on here, because you guys enjoy being snide (as do I at times) and for some reason you believe quoting the same pointless and facetious talking point over and over again makes you witty. Or something.

Yes, the GOP does generally favors less government intervention in business matters, but at the end of the day they want to use their power to influence business decisions just as much as the Democrats do. Their both equally full of shit. Neither really gives a fuck about the law. We should all be beaten down and lied to enough to understand that.

Once again, your being intentionally obtuse. You know that. So stop doing it.

Order up!