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The Case For Infanticide

I tend to agree with Arlington. This is so outrageous that it's more like to come from a radical group of pro-lifers than "experts".

Except that these "experts" hold legitimate degrees and teach in actual universities, lecturing about medical ethics around the world, being pretty consistent about their conclusions on how we determine the viability and value of life. If it were this elaborate Reductio ad absurdum against abortion - they have invested countless time and professional capitol in pulling it off. If this were simply published on a blog or in a paper, maybe, but to be included in the Journal of Medical Ethics, I doubt this is some elaborate political scheme.

And to Shoo - I doubt that any on here are actually in fear that this line of thinking ever becomes public policy, but that this is even up for debate (even by an extreme minority of people who most likely will be dismissed) is pretty sad. Another unfortunate repercussion of this being published is that many pro-life advocates will use this as an alarmist call to action (which will seem ridiculous to most like Santorum's fear-based discussion of euthanasia in Holland), distracting from the real discussion concerning abortion, and increasing the divide between the two camps, further hindering civil discussion.
 
Too many people in the debate over abortion seem to want to define the beginning of life to suit their convenience. I don't think that's either particularly scientific, or particularly moral. Nor, will it be able to be sustained for very long.
 
could you please elaborate exactly what you mean, because I think that is the fundamental question surrounding the entire debate (and really the only question that really matters).
 
I think this might be a long discussion, and I'm not sure I have the time right now to take it up. Nevertheless and briefly, it seems to me that in this discussion about when life begins many people start out from their views on abortion, pro or con, and make judgments about when life begins based on their views about abortion. If you want legal abortions, you probably will reject the notion that life begins at conception, despite the logic and the science that might support such a view. If you think abortions are immoral, then you will likely reject views that life begins at birth, or at viability, although reasonable and scientific arguments may perhaps be made for these views. I guess my main point is that for many people their views on abortion are leading to their views on the beginning of life and not the other way around. I personally find this to be troubling. We should develop our views about abortions based on when life begins, not the other way around. That would seem to be more logical and moral. It would also seem to be better science.
 
So how do you guys think people determine their views on abortion? (Honest question, haven't heard this argument before.)
 
I think the ways people come to their views on anything are as varied as people themselves. I guess I really wasn't agreeing so much with the the "how people come to their views" part of sailor's post as much as this sentence: "We should develop our views about abortions based on when life begins. . . .That would seem to be more logical and moral. It would also seem to be better science."

I think the whole issue boils down to when life begins. Wherever that point is, I think it is unconscionable to allow abortions after that point. If what is in the womb isn't a person, then honestly, abortion shouldn't be an issue. But if it is a person, then I don't think one could reasonably argue for it without sounding as radical as the article posted. All discussions about rights to privacy, etc. are secondary to the question of is what is in the womb a person. Since there is not consensus on this issue, we have the other arguments.

With regards to Sailor, I do believe that people hold certain views, then adopt certain positions to justify that view (that occurs in all realms, not just concerning abortion),but it's not an all-inclusive reason that someone would adopt these positions.
 
So how do you guys think people determine their views on abortion? (Honest question, haven't heard this argument before.)


Good question Avalon, and I can only speculate here, although anyone is free to elaborate their thoughts for himself. Some ways may be: what is suitable for one's convenience, religion, a moral code, going with the flow, going against the stream, wanting to blend in, and so forth. I pretty much agree with Thunderbolt in that there are many varied ways. And I also agree with Thunderbolt that there are many other realms, not just abortion, where people hold certain views and then adopt certain positions to justify that view. Lots of times people's thinking on all kinds of subjects seems to reflect IIRC that of the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland, "Verdict first, trial later."

By the way is Avalon based on Avalon, NJ?
 
Indeed! Grandparents' house / summer home growing up. I'm am woefully uncreative and my name on the old boards was based on a city I no longer lived in, so I figured I'd tie the new name to a place that I'll always have ties to.

I guess my confusion is around how someone could think that abortion was equivalent to killing a child and be pro choice, thereby talking themselves into the idea that a fetus is not a child. But I agree with you both that there are plenty of areas where people are guilty of building their argument based on the conclusion they want to reach. So I'm sure it happens around abortion as well, I'd imagine by people that aren't sure what they believe in terms of the beginning of life.
 
If a fetus is deemed a person after conception, and abortion is made illegal, at which point should a pregnant woman be held legally culpable for taking acts during pregnancy that endanger/harm the fetus/child? Or kill the fetus/child? There are logical extensions of both sides of the argument that make it a difficult topic. I certainly don't think we want to start arresting, for murder, a pregnant woman who miscarries due to having too much to drink 9 weeks after conception but before she realizes she is pregnant. Right? Or are you going to imprison a mother who smokes and, as a result, gives birth prematurely? Should that child have a cause of action against his mother? What if the mother develops gestational diabetes, and the child dies at childbirth, and a doctor/expert testifies that the child would not have died had the mother been more health conscious during pregnancy? Murder? Manslaughter?

Of course not. But, those are logical conclusions of the opposing argument. You can take any argument, like these people have done, and make it seem extreme. But, it doesn't make "sense," even if you can argue that it is the "logical" conclusion of the position.

Roe v. Wade is inherently flawed for this reason, but it is also the correct decision for this reason.
 
Indeed! Grandparents' house / summer home growing up. I'm am woefully uncreative and my name on the old boards was based on a city I no longer lived in, so I figured I'd tie the new name to a place that I'll always have ties to.

I guess my confusion is around how someone could think that abortion was equivalent to killing a child and be pro choice, thereby talking themselves into the idea that a fetus is not a child. But I agree with you both that there are plenty of areas where people are guilty of building their argument based on the conclusion they want to reach. So I'm sure it happens around abortion as well, I'd imagine by people that aren't sure what they believe in terms of the beginning of life.

I don't understand how someone could be convinced that abortion was killing a child and be pro choice either. Be that as it may, my point was that people come to their views on when life begins based on their views on the permissibility of abortion, not the other way around. In fact, wouldn't it be better to base our views on abortion based on our views on when life begins.

I have many fond memories of summer days and even better summer nights in Avalon and Stone Harbor from my high school days. The grandparents of one of my best friends from high school had a house there for a while. Later we just went down to the shore at Avalon and Stone Harbor to hang out with our friends, who had summer jobs there. Those were the days!
 
I think it's safe to say that these guys are on the fringes with their "ethical" arguments.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...s-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html

What concerns me, however, is how they cite a disabled child's "unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.” When a government becomes so intrusive into the assistance it provides that the same assistance is used as a justification for further intervention, it tends to bug me. (see the Blunt Amendment thread for another example)
 
I don't understand how someone could be convinced that abortion was killing a child and be pro choice either. Be that as it may, my point was that people come to their views on when life begins based on their views on the permissibility of abortion, not the other way around. In fact, wouldn't it be better to base our views on abortion based on our views on when life begins.

Some consider abortion an intensely private issue, and, while perhaps being against it personally, they do not believe they have the right to definitely decide that issue for another person. You can be pro-choice but personally abhor abortion. It's not inconsistent to be both against a thing, but for every other person's right to determine their choice for themselves. We do this everyday, across a wide spectrum of issues.

I don't know that I agree with your second and third sentence, though I'm sure its true for some. I think most people do arrive at their view based on when life begins, and not the other way around. Of course, there are some who don't base their view on the legality of abortion through the lens of when life begins at all.
 
One thing that has always bothered me about the abortion debate is the idea that there is some black and white line before which it is ok to do whatever you want to with your unborn child and after which harming them in any way becomes immoral. Unless you are drawing that line at conception then you will end up with an organism that has at least some human-ness on the before side of the line.

The most popular place for pro-choice proponents to draw the line is viability. Before the fetus can survive independent from the mother, they argue, it is morally ok to abort that fetus. At the moment the child becomes viable then abortion becomes immoral. Most pro-choice arguments I have read do not argue that abortion before conception is immoral yet also a right that should be protected. Such arguments would require an acknowledgment that there is actually something there before viability and that that something might actually have value.

The problem is that there is a separate organism there before viability and that organism at least has a human quality to it. It seems as though that this organism with a human quality should be protected.

So to sailor and IAM, I disagree that it comes down solely to when personhood begins. I think ABC's post points to where the real debate should be. Before viability there is clearly something of value that has a human quality to it and it ought to be protected. However, it is tied directly to the mother in a way it is not after viability and that mother has rights which ought to be protected. The biggest right is actually not the right to privacy but the right to choose. The right to choose whether to have children and the right to choose what one does with one's own body (which abortion aside is not a right fully granted by the U.S).

The best solution, and the one which should ultimately become policy, is the one which respects the rights of the mother yet also recognizes the value of the pre-viability fetus.

To me that point should be far enough after conception to allow a woman sufficient time to decide if she wants a child yet before the fetus begins to take on human like qualities (formation of organs, a heartbeat, etc.). A brief google search tells me that this is probably somewhere between three and four weeks after conception. After the first four weeks any reason other than a true risk to the mother's life does not seem compelling.

Just one man's opinion

Though I don't agree with everything here, this is an excellent, thoughtful post.
 
Thanks Arlington. I'd be interested to hear where you feel your views differ from the one's in my post.

I don't know if I'm completely sold on my own proposal but I do feel like it at least gets us away from the current standoff between viability and conception and moves us towards a place of more responsible pregnancy.

I agree with Arlington that your post indicated a thoughtful, rational approach to a difficult topic. However, many woman don't know that they are pregnant within 3 to 4 weeks after conception. I would guess that most don't. And, there has to be at least some time to ponder this decision and schedule the procedure after the person becomes aware she is pregnant. So, that is going to get you well past the 3-4 week interval automatically. If you then start to run up against your moral objections due to the fetus' formation of "human like qualities," then, in effect, you have outlawed abortion altogether.

As I said above, Roe v. Wade has a ton of holes in it, but it was/is a practical approach to something that, despite best efforts by both sides of the debate, really doesn't have a clear-cut "right" answer. I fully agree with Arlington in that you can be against abortion personally but respect the right to choose. Having had a child myself, I cannot imagine choosing to abort (unless my wife's health was in danger). But, I think others should have the right to come to that decision themselves.

I know several people who have had abortions. None took it lightly, and many deal with the impacts of their decision many years later. I don't think they are murderers, however, and really cannot begin to think of them that way. I also know many people who have had miscarriages. I don't think they did anything "wrong," either, although I am sure in hindsight that many of them think "what if I had/hadn't done X..." They cannot possibly be considered negligent/responsible, though. It is just inconsistent with our society to put that responsibility on the mother.
 
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A lot of interesting and good posts here wrestling with a very seious dilemma. I am not sure that everybody has understood my posts here as I meant them but rather than getting bogged down in that let me offer a few more thoughts. I think abortion is one of the most complicated and challenging issues both intellectuallly and emotionally. Here are a couple of additional difficulties. No matter what position you take on abortion, and how you arrived at that position, the logic of your thinking - if you wish to remain logically consistent - will lead to consequences that are difficult to accept. ABC has pointed out what some of these might be.

One possibility that offers hope is that we can find some compromise solution. Unfortunately, this is often leads to disappointment, in logical terms at least. Take Arlington's post for example. IIRC, it goes something like this: I am opposed to abortion but I don't want to intrude into another person's life in what is after all a very private and personal decision. This seems reasonable and tolerant enough. On the other hand it immediately raises another question; namely, why do you oppose abortion? If the reason is that "I am opposed to it because abortion is taking human life," which is often the case for those who oppose abortion, then by being tolerant with abortion, you are also saying that "I don't think it's right for me to take a human life but it's OK for you to?" Or put another way, I am determined to defend the life of my child, but if you wish to kill yours, its OK by me. Not a particularly happy consequence of our logic, is it?

Furthermore, if we try to compromise in the public or political sphere on abortion, then we find that we can't do it without somehow undermining the logic that we used to arrive at our position in the first place. If abortion is taking human life, then why should it be allowed under any circumstances; and if a woman has an absolute right to chose, then why should this choice be curtailed in any fashion?

In any event, I don't think that there are any easy answers here. This is not a question that will go away easily or quickly.
 
That's because they are having a baby. Once it's born it's a baby. They're just using the wrong term instead of embryo or fetus.

In reference to human birth, the term fetus is really only used medically or politically. I've never heard a woman say "the fetus just kicked", or seen people paint and decorate a fetus's room.
 
Has anyone read the Brethren? A book about the Supreme Court, it included the background to how Roe v Wade was cobbled together. It's not with me, but I remember how amazed I was over how it came to be. The reasoning should have been embarrassing to the justice responsible for it.

Abortion as an issue was moving in the direction of the pro-choice crowd until the justices stepped in and "ended" the political debate. Now we've been going at it ever since.
 
I read this whole thread and didn't see anything that wasn't discussed in a 9th grade class when the teacher divided the claas in half and assigned a side. This in 1970.
 
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