The naked truth

[PhDeac]

So you're not familiar with the talk about the greedy teachers' unions or the lazy teachers who only work until 3.

 

[84Deac]

So you're not familiar with the talk about the greedy teachers' unions or the lazy teachers who only work until 3.

I think the arguments have been that public employees need to share in the pain just like those in the private sector have, particularly when it comes to pensions, 401(k) and retirement accounts. And it is unrealistic for them to think that taxpayers are assholes for calling them out on it, especially when the government education system has proven to be so ineffective and wasteful.

How do we spend so much per pupil for such a low result?

Still waiting for you to share your thoughts on reforms you favor or improvements that you see as necessary. But I'm guessing we will be waiting a long time for those insights.

 

[Shorty]

So you're not familiar with the talk about the greedy teachers' unions or the lazy teachers who only work until 3.

Try to stay on point. You're doing what you ususally do when you make a ridiculous, unfounded statement and someone calls you on it. You're backing off by changing the subject.

You said that teachers are being blamed for the larger financial crisis and that doing so was a trend among repulican governors across the board. I have not read any republican governor quoted as saying that greedy teachers unions are the cause of the larger financial crisis, nor have I read one quoted as saying that there are lazy teachers who only work until 3:00.

Can youi provide quotes from republican governors to that effect?

 

[PhDeac]

Try to stay on point. You're doing what you ususally do when you make a ridiculous, unfounded statement and someone calls you on it. You're backing off by changing the subject.

You said that teachers are being blamed for the larger financial crisis and that doing so was a trend among repulican governors across the board. I have not read any republican governor quoted as saying that greedy teachers unions are the cause of the larger financial crisis, nor have I read one quoted as saying that there are lazy teachers who only work until 3:00.

Can youi provide quotes from republican governors to that effect?

I said teachers are being blamed for the dried up pensions that were caused by the financial crisis. There's less money due to factors that have nothing to do with teachers and everything to do with mismanagement of money at other levels. Teachers are being scapegoated and given the tab. Republicans are not letting a crisis go to waste so they're sticking it to teachers' unions. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been out in the public sphere for several months.

Chris Christie Via Star-Ledger:

“There’s a lot of really great teachers in the state, but their union cares more about how much they get paid than they care about how well you learn…


Too much of that money is not getting to all of you to get the best teachers, to get the materials and the technology that’s necessary to get you the best education. The money is going to places it shouldn’t go to. At times like this, nobody can be greedy. Everyone has to be willing to share with each other.”
​

Next time, just use Google, Shorty.


In the speech where Christie said that he was bashing teachers for complaining about a mandatory 1.5% contribution to their health benefits, yet we know there's no way in hell he would propose a 1.5% tax increase. These policies are seeking to drain from the poor and middle class without touching the rich.


923, it's not about education being one of several things getting cut. Remember, I was talking about education vs. tax cuts. Sure government benefits are being cut to support the current tax structure and further tax cuts. If you can institute what is essentially a tax increase solely on government workers, you don't have to raise income taxes.

The Republican gameplan is to make the poor and middle class pay more for the government benefits they receive right now in order to support tax cuts for the rich. Shorty, 84, just admit it. These are the types of policies you and others have been posting about for years. I don't know why you're denying it now.

 

[Shorty]

I bow down before the master bullshitter. No one is better at this than you, PH.

Here is EXACTLY what you said in your earlier posts. I copied and pasted so as not to change a single word:

"But blaming teachers for the larger financial crisis that dried up their pensions is disingenuous"
followed by:
"It's a trend among Republican governors across the board."


Then in your last post, complete with pictures, you wrote:

"I said teachers are being blamed for the dried up pensions that were caused by the financial crisis."

84 and I called you on your bullshit statement that teachers are being blamed for the crisis, so what did you do? You just changed your statement. It evolved into the latest iteration above.

As I said, you are the master at this. If you are unable to defend what you wrote, then you just lie about what you wrote.

 

[PhDeac]

There was a larger financial crisis that dried up teacher pensions.

Teachers are being blamed for their pensions drying up and asked to pay the price.

Two statements nobody should be able to disagree with that somehow manage to confound you.

 

[Shorty]

There was a larger financial crisis that dried up teacher pensions.

Teachers are being blamed for their pensions drying up and asked to pay the price.

Two statements nobody should be able to disagree with that somehow manage to confound you.

Beep, beep, beep, beep.

 

[Shorty]

There was a larger financial crisis that dried up teacher pensions.

Teachers are being blamed for their pensions drying up and asked to pay the price.

Two statements nobody should be able to disagree with that somehow manage to confound you.

This is usually your next step in the process. Claim that someone is not smart enough to understand what CLEARLY everyone else accepts as fact. They are "confounded".

To help clear up my confusion, simply answer this one question. To help you, I'll provide some backdrop. Here is what you posted earlier, the statement I challenged that you seem unwilling to admit that you said:

"But blaming teachers for the larger financial crisis that dried up their pensions is disingenuous"
followed by:
"It's a trend among Republican governors across the board."

Here is my question. Ready? Do you think teachers are being blamed for the larger financial crises?

Yes ____ No ____

Edited to add: I'm going to anticipate the final step in your obfuscation. Your next step is usually - "I've already answered the question." If that was what you were going to post next, I've saved you the trouble.

 

[PhDeac]

No.

Do you think teachers are being blamed for pension problems that were outside their control?

I think they are. If you disagree, please explain why instead of making it personal.

 

[Sgt Hulka]

I don't think anyone is blaming the teachers for the financial crisis. What I have seen them "blamed" for is that their pensions took a hit (like everyone else's), yet, they do not want to take the hit. They want a guaranteed return (as do all public employee unions) and believe the taxpayers should make up the short fall.

 

[Shorty]

No.

Do you think teachers are being blamed for pension problems that were outside their control?

I think they are. If you disagree, please explain why instead of making it personal.

Thank you for answering my question. Finally.

I do not think teachers are being blamed for their pension problems. The heat they are taking is because they seem unwilling to take the same hit that private sector employees have no choice but to accept. The cost of my benefits has gone up every year for the last several years, and by a whole lot more than 1.5%. I do not work for a large company with a pension plan, but the pension benefits I have at my old company will be less as of right now.

Public sector employees should not be immune to the market-based impact that private sector employees, who pay their salaries, have no choice but to accept.

 

[84Deac]

Thank you for answering my question. Finally.

I do not think teachers are being blamed for their pension problems. The heat they are taking is because they seem unwilling to take the same hit that private sector employees have no choice but to accept. The cost of my benefits has gone up every year for the last several years, and by a whole lot more than 1.5%. I do not work for a large company with a pension plan, but the pension benefits I have at my old company will be less as of right now.

Public sector employees should not be immune to the market-based impact that private sector employees, who pay their salaries, have no choice but to accept.

Agree 100%. I don't think the teachers are being blamed for the pension problems, but many public pension funds are underfunded (due to market performance and the various governments choosing to make the minimum contributions over the years using fudged actuarial assumptions or what have you) while the cities/states around the country are already going broke. So, either the teachers (and other public employees) take the hit or you tell their employers (the taxpayers) that they are going to have to dig deeper in to their pockets to fund those public pensions through higher taxes. I think the taxpayers have been pretty clear about how they think it should play out.

 

[PhDeac]

Agree 100%. I don't think the teachers are being blamed for the pension problems, but many public pension funds are underfunded (due to market performance and the various governments choosing to make the minimum contributions over the years using fudged actuarial assumptions or what have you) while the cities/states around the country are already going broke. So, either the teachers (and other public employees) take the hit or you tell their employers (the taxpayers) that they are going to have to dig deeper in to their pockets to fund those public pensions through higher taxes. I think the taxpayers have been pretty clear about how they think it should play out.

These are the same taxpayers who were forced to bail out the banks so investors wouldn't have to take a hit. Now teachers have to suffer and make sacrifices that others haven't been asked to make.

And yes, teachers and other public sector workers and the governments are being blamed. The rhetoric is about these so-called luxury benefits that public workers get not the mismanagement of pensions and the larger crisis.

 

[Shorty]

These are the same taxpayers who were forced to bail out the banks so investors wouldn't have to take a hit. Now teachers have to suffer and make sacrifices that others haven't been asked to make.

And yes, teachers and other public sector workers and the governments are being blamed. The rhetoric is about these so-called luxury benefits that public workers get not the mismanagement of pensions and the larger crisis.

Teachers are not being blamed for anything other than failing to accept the fact that their benefits and pensions are subject to market conditions just like those of private sector employees. And I imagine teachers use banks, too.

You have so totally bought into the politics of victimization. Somehow, I think you actually WANT teachers to be blamed so you can potray them as the victims.

 

[PhDeac]

"Politics of victimization"? Come on. You act like the market is some vague anonymous force that moves mysteriously through the world and affects everyone equally. That's not the case.

You're using an old tactic. Pit one group of the middle class against another as they fight for the scraps that trickle down from the top.

 

[Shorty]

"Politics of victimization"? Come on. You act like the market is some vague anonymous force that moves mysteriously through the world and affects everyone equally. That's not the case.

You're using an old tactic. Pit one group of the middle class against another as they fight for the scraps that trickle down from the top.

This is where you and I will never agree, so I am going to leave it at this. The only reason I pursued this thread at all was to get you to admit that your statement about there being a trend among republican governors to blame teachers for the greater financial crises was bullshit. It took three pages, but you finally admitted that.

You see republicans as overtly pursing a strategy to "stick it to" one part of the electorate in order to benefit the other. I think that's ludicrous.

 

[LCdeac]

Teachers have difficulty bearing the fallout of the fiscal crisis because they have always existed in a deferred compensation reality. They are paid less than the private sector. This is made up in the form of pension that guarantees their ability to live on that lesser pay after retirement. This has taken the form of social contract. To pull pensions is not as easy as saying, "oops, times are tough, deal with it." It is saying, "thanks for the thing we bought from you, now we aren't going to pay."

Now, I understand it is more complex than that. But for teachers, there is no potential bonus next year that will make it possible to recoup. Thus the pain of private sector jobs like finance do not compare to public sector jobs like teaching. The risk of lower salary is supposed to be mitigated by the promise of a perpetual lower salary. That may not seem like such a good deal to the taxpayer now, but it was the deal.

Again, I am told the complexity is in the administrative and political layering that make the education dollar an inefficient dollar. That makes sense to me but I can't testify to its validity.

I am not a teacher, by the way.

 

[Shorty]

I am not a teacher either, but I was raised in northern NJ by two. Both my mother and father agree with and see the necessity of what Christie is doing there.

 

[Underrated]

Teachers have difficulty bearing the fallout of the fiscal crisis because they have always existed in a deferred compensation reality. They are paid less than the private sector

Teachers who teach in the private sector at non public schools make less money than public teacher counterparts on average. When you say they make less are you comparing them with folks who aren't teachers?

 

[LCdeac]

Yes to the question of comparing them to non-teachers. And as far as New Jersey goes, teachers in Jersey are very well compensated versus other parts of the country.

Two of my friends from Mother So Dear are now teachers and could have done a whole lot of other things but felt a certain calling to teaching. I also have a brother who graduated Duke with the same insane notion. I watch as their families struggle to make ends meet. Yet they all know the choices they made. But those choices included working the last 15+ years with Pension benefits.

It is not a perfect argument and isn't meant to deal with the sweeping generalizations. But hopefully this anecdotal evidence can give pause to sweeping generalizations.