Top 3 Choices

[RollWave35]

True or False: Archie Miller would be a worse coach if Craft had made that buzzer-beating floater.

What does that have to do with Howland making 3 straight Final Fours? You don't luck your way into that.

 

[TexasDeac71]

1. Shaka
2. Miller
3. White
4. Amaker
5. Howland

We ain't getting Marshall, so I'll be very disappointed if our new coach isn't on the above list. First and foremost, we need an ACC level recruiter.

Agree except I'll be more than very disappointed. We will be totally screwed if we hire someone NOT on that list.....

 

[FckVwls]

What does that have to do with Howland making 3 straight Final Fours? You don't luck your way into that.

Adam Morrison's Gonzaga completely gagged away a game in the S16 that they had UCLA beat. If Gonzaga wins that game Ben Howland is still the exact same coach if he had 2 final fours instead of 3.

I would think much more highly of Ben Howland's UCLA tenure if he had regularly excellent teams the whole time but only one final four and lots of S16 E8 exits etc.

 

[DeacinBama]

Agree except I'll be more than very disappointed. We will be totally screwed if we hire someone NOT on that list.....

Masiello wouldn't be so bad.

 

[PhDeac]

Yeah, I had the same thought re: the faculty position, Ph. I asked somewhere else if there was any reason to think that would be something she would even want.
BTW, do you view Wake admin "bloat" as being relatively bad at Wake or is that fairly universal now. Would a smaller student:teacher ratio affect that?

It's universal and a problem in my opinion. I'm not specifically aware of what's going on at Wake. When I hear that Hatch makes $1.4M to lead what should be a smaller institution than our peers (yes, despite having graduate programs, a law school, business school, and med school), I'm concerned.

Even back at Wake, I was skeptical of how money was spent. That was before I had experience in administration as a grad student at a larger private and almost 10 years as faculty at a regional public with several times the students as Wake. Looking at the Wake Will priorities and how little is going to academics or even athletics only makes me more skeptical. How many administrators are specifically hired to make life cushy for students?

Anyway, this is well off-topic. Feel free to PM me for more discussion.

 

[wake20]

Howland had two NCAA tournament victories at UCLA in his 5 years after the Final Four runs (beating a 10-seed by 2 and an 11-seed by 1). Amaker has two NCAA tournaments at Harvard in his last two years.

Also, Amaker is an elite recruiter. Howland is not.

 

[RollWave35]

Adam Morrison's Gonzaga completely gagged away a game in the S16 that they had UCLA beat. If Gonzaga wins that game Ben Howland is still the exact same coach than if he had 2 final fours instead of 3.

If you start taking away accomplishments from resumes based on what could have happened, you'll end up with a a nation full of coaches that haven't won anything. Howland was relatively consistent, brought in NBA talent, won conference titles, and yet he gets knocked for "underachieving." And yet Amaker gets a pass because...? Because he's had 2-3 good years at Harvard?

 

[IAppreciateIt]

What does that have to do with Howland making 3 straight Final Fours? You don't luck your way into that.

Uh, I don't know. You are the one who randomly brought Howland into a conversation about the merits of Archie Miller and Tommy Amaker.

 

[DeacinBama]

Adam Morrison's Gonzaga completely gagged away a game in the S16 that they had UCLA beat. If Gonzaga wins that game Ben Howland is still the exact same coach than if he had 2 final fours instead of 3.

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. One FF can be (but probably shouldn't) be dismissed as a fluke. Three FFs cannot.

 

[FckVwls]

If you start taking away accomplishments from resumes based on what could have happened, you'll end up with a a nation full of coaches that haven't won anything. Howland was relatively consistent, brought in NBA talent, won conference titles, and yet he gets knocked for "underachieving." And yet Amaker gets a pass because...? Because he's had 2-3 good years at Harvard?

I tried to add this to my last post but: ¨I would think much more highly of Ben Howland's UCLA tenure if he had regularly excellent teams the whole time but only one final four and lots of S16 E8 exits etc.¨

The tournament is random so using tournament benchmarks to rate coaching candidates isn't the best

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Howland had two NCAA tournament victories at UCLA in his 5 years after the Final Four runs (beating a 10-seed by 2 and an 11-seed by 1). Amaker has two NCAA tournaments at Harvard in his last two years.

Give me the Final Fours. Amaker=boooooring. Enough of boooooring.

 

[IAppreciateIt]

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. One FF can be (but probably shouldn't) be dismissed as a fluke. Three FFs cannot.

If we insist on rehashing the Howland debate, I don't think anyone is saying that Howland got lucky during those years -- those FF teams he had were incredibly good. (And would have been incredibly good even if things had been slightly different and they didn't make 3 FFs). I actually think they should have been better considering how ridiculous the talent level on those teams were.

Anyway, the Howland debate isn't whether he coached good teams then (nobody would disagree with that), but rather whether he could duplicate those efforts today. I think it's doubtful, because he couldn't come close to duplicating them the next five years at UCLA and got fired.

 

[TexasDeac71]

That was hilarious: 1. Called him Sean, 2. Said he and his brother are both in Sweet 16 even though Arizona hasn't played yet 3. Clearly heard Archie in his earpiece so just yelled ¨your brother Archie!" right to Archie.

Good lord Gumbel

Well, that was rather embarrassing...bet younger brother Bryant was impressed with that.....:tard:

 

[FckVwls]

And if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. One FF can be (but probably shouldn't) be dismissed as a fluke. Three FFs cannot.

They weren't flukey at all. All 3 UCLA teams that made the final four were awesome teams. That's not my point.

The point is that the tournament is random so I would suggest evaluating candidates based on how many awesome teams they had not how many sweet 16s or final fours they made.

 

[myDeaconmyhand]

The conference landscape has seismically shifted in the last few years. Despite how great some teams can and will be in the SEC, outside of UK and UF, they are the pips. The ACC is back to being what the SEC is in FB. I would give that nod to WF over other non ACC academically elite schools for a while. Stanford is the exception because they have less competition for that niche of student on the west coast.

Kentucky, Vandy, Florida, Alabama, Arkansas, Tennessee, Florida are all top 40 nationally in college basketball attendance, Arkansas, Ten, and UK being top 20. Only 5 ACC teams are top 40 in attendance: Syracuse, Louisville, UNC, NC State, and Pitt. The ACC is much more respected and relevant as a basketball brand, nationwide, but the importance of basketball individually at the schools is probably more similar than you think.

 

[DeacinBama]

If we insist on rehashing the Howland debate, I don't think anyone is saying that Howland got lucky during those years -- those FF teams he had were incredibly good. And still would have been just as good if things had been slightly different and UCLA doesn't make three final fours. I actually think they should have been better considering how ridiculous the talent level on those teams were.

Anyway, the Howland debate isn't whether he coached good teams then (nobody would disagree with that), but rather whether he could duplicate those efforts today. I think it's doubtful, because he couldn't come close to duplicating them the next five years at UCLA and got fired.

I wasn't trying to rehash Howland as a candidate, but rather address the post that - you know - I quoted. FckVwls later post about not over-valuing NCAAT performance is a good one, but I see little utility in identifying a single year when a ball could have bounced the other way and using that as evidence when the preponderance of information indicates that someone flat out knows how to coach. That, after all, was the post I was addressing.

 

[wake20]

It's good that Dayton beat Cuse. It allows us to go after Shaka first without losing any ground with Archie and his people.

Well, now Archie plays Stanford in the Sweet 16 instead of Kansas. When do we go from "wow, Archie has to have Ron's attention now!!!" to "Oh shit, an Elite 8? He's got his sights higher than the Wake job now" ??

 

[DemonDeacon501]

Hell, after this performance by Kansas, Bill Self might be an option.

(Not serious ... )

 

[TexasDeac71]

Masiello wouldn't be so bad.

My bad, forgot about him.....

 

[IAppreciateIt]

I wasn't trying to rehash Howland as a candidate, but rather address the post that - you know - I quoted. FckVwls later post about not over-valuing NCAAT performance is a good one, but I see little utility in identifying a single year when a ball could have bounced the other way and using that as evidence when the preponderance of information indicates that someone flat out knows how to coach. That, after all, was the post I was addressing.

He was just trying to illustrate a point, not trying to make a value judgment on Howland.