True option flex bone offense?

[siff]

Briles got RGIII to come to Waco. At some point, a coach has take that step to build a program. That's the key difference - not that Briles can build on what he established with a Heisman winner, but the fact that he figured out a way to get an RGIII to buy into building something at a place like Baylor.

 

[DEACS76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01qIrdfWlAs

 

[wfupdx]

Briles was a HS football coach in Texas before moving to college--he is probably what every HS football coach in Texas would like to be. The resurgence of Baylor is pretty simple:
1. Briles recruits amazingly well--likely based on the above
2. Briles plays an exciting brand of football that players want to play
3. Baylor leveraged the success of RGIII into alumni support, donations, and an amazing stadium (supposedly RGIII led to 500 million in revenue)

WFU is not exactly the same--but certainly Grobe has failed to do much of the above after the 2006 season and we are likely stuck in mediocrity for a long time.

 

[deputydeacon]

Look...it's not all facilities, or geographical location, or fan support, or recruiting tactics, or stringent academics, or scheme, or in-game coaching...it is a culmination of all the above that is hindering WFU offensively right now.
Someone mentioned the success of Army's offense in an earlier post?? Our defense pretty much shut them down this year IIRC. We have similar kids offensively/defensively & strength/skill wise but the difference IMO in the two groups is attitude/scheme/in-game coaching. Same factors mentioned above affect both sides of the ball. Same type kids being recruited for both. One glaring difference...

We should have done better! I personally feel bad for and will miss Nikita, Zack, Kris, Mike, Justin, Whit, Steven, Josh, Tanner, Daniel, and of course Camp! Definitely one of the greatest classes of student athletes to ever come through Wake Forest! One of the better defenses we have had since I began watching back during the days of our "open the gate" honoree from Saturday Jay Venuto.
Rushing to change an offensive scheme to meet an LOWF mentality is NOT the answer. Rushing to change the LOWF mentality is!

 

[Demonbeck]

To those who think watching an option team would be boring, I have grown up watching Georgia Southern play this brand of football and it is highly entertaining.

Seriously, who didn't enjoy watching us run the wing t years ago? It was great.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

Look...it's not all facilities, or geographical location, or fan support, or recruiting tactics, or stringent academics, or scheme, or in-game coaching...it is a culmination of all the above that is hindering WFU offensively right now.
Someone mentioned the success of Army's offense in an earlier post?? Our defense pretty much shut them down this year IIRC. We have similar kids offensively/defensively & strength/skill wise but the difference IMO in the two groups is attitude/scheme/in-game coaching. Same factors mentioned above affect both sides of the ball. Same type kids being recruited for both. One glaring difference...

We should have done better! I personally feel bad for and will miss Nikita, Zack, Kris, Mike, Justin, Whit, Steven, Josh, Tanner, Daniel, and of course Camp! Definitely one of the greatest classes of student athletes to ever come through Wake Forest! One of the better defenses we have had since I began watching back during the days of our "open the gate" honoree from Saturday Jay Venuto.
Rushing to change an offensive scheme to meet an LOWF mentality is NOT the answer. Rushing to change the LOWF mentality is!

We did and Nikita is a beast against the option. However, Army also had 284 rushing yards against Stanford, so the point remains that if Army can run that offense with reasonable success against most teams with 250lb lineman, we could potentially be successful with it since I do feel we can recruit better players than Army.

 

[DEACS76]

We did and Nikita is a beast against the option. However, Army also had 284 rushing yards against Stanford, so the point remains that if Army can run that offense with reasonable success against most teams with 250lb lineman, we could potentially be successful with it since I do feel we can recruit better players than Army.

I saw the '77 Michigan-Ohio St game on ESPN classics. The starting OT for Michigan was Mike Kenn, a 1st rd pick of the Falcons. He was listed at 249 lbs and he was an All-American. Army and Navy run the schemes because they can't recruit the 6'6" 300 lb guy that we have on our roster. Our guys may be a little heavy, because they aren't that quick off the ball. But I'm not sure the players believe in this mish-mash of offenses that the staff seems to be tinkering with.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

I saw the '77 Michigan-Ohio St game on ESPN classics. The starting OT for Michigan was Mike Kenn, a 1st rd pick of the Falcons. He was listed at 249 lbs and he was an All-American. Army and Navy run the schemes because they can't recruit the 6'6" 300 lb guy that we have on our roster. Our guys may be a little heavy, because they aren't that quick off the ball. But I'm not sure the players believe in this mish-mash of offenses that the staff seems to be tinkering with.

Yeah, I love watching the games from the 70's and 80's on Classic. It's funny to see games even as recently as the mid-late 80's where the OL weights for the power programs were in the 250lb range and now a college O-line that averages less the 300lbs is considered small.

Grobe's take is that we had recruited the smaller more athletic O-lineman up until the emergence of Riley Skinner, then we were forced to become more of a traditional passing team and we started recruiting the bigger O-lineman. Unfortunately those bigger O-lineman have turned out to not be that good and then we tried to go to an option attack this year with an O-line poorly suited (or least even more poorly suited) for it. Of course we also had a QB poorly suited for it as well, so why that was ever considered a good idea I guess we'll never know.

 

[Demonbeck]

I saw the '77 Michigan-Ohio St game on ESPN classics. The starting OT for Michigan was Mike Kenn, a 1st rd pick of the Falcons. He was listed at 249 lbs and he was an All-American. Army and Navy run the schemes because they can't recruit the 6'6" 300 lb guy that we have on our roster. Our guys may be a little heavy, because they aren't that quick off the ball. But I'm not sure the players believe in this mish-mash of offenses that the staff seems to be tinkering with.

Mike Kenn still lives in Atlanta and I see him regularly. Great guy.

 

[deputydeacon]

L+D, call me old school, but I think it works better with the QB under the center. The QB can hide the ball better and can hand off or play fake with either hand. The shot gun/pistol formation shows too much to the defense, the backs have no momentum when the ball is handed to them. Give me Thomas Lott or J.C. Watts to run my option attack.

Today's option game out of the gun should be outlawed entirely. On paper (or a chalkboard/whiteboard), it is impossible to defend, much harder to defend than from under center. From one alignment and one presnap read you, as a defense may have to defend sweep (the jet), power (the ace back and BSG), wrap (the old midline QB pull), or an ISO read. At any one time yes, they may be reading your DE or OLB; however, they may be reading your 3 technique or even your BSILB! I'm telling you that defending a team that runs it well is a bitch! Defending the speed option we ran at the beginning of the year is gravy for a defense!

 

[liveanddiedeac]

Today's option game out of the gun should be outlawed entirely. On paper (or a chalkboard/whiteboard), it is impossible to defend, much harder to defend than from under center. From one alignment and one presnap read you, as a defense may have to defend sweep (the jet), power (the ace back and BSG), wrap (the old midline QB pull), or an ISO read. At any one time yes, they may be reading your DE or OLB; however, they may be reading your 3 technique or even your BSILB! I'm telling you that defending a team that runs it well is a bitch! Defending the speed option we ran at the beginning of the year is gravy for a defense!

Let's see Oregon put up 16 points against Arizona and Baylor put up 17 against Ok. State.:thumbsup:

 

[DEACS76]

In practice in HS, we gave every back a ball and the defense practiced tackling everybody. In the game, we just would release from our guy if he didn't have the ball and pursue. I don't think our staff could pull this offense off with the personnnel we have.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

In practice in HS, we gave every back a ball and the defense practiced tackling everybody. In the game, we just would release from our guy if he didn't have the ball and pursue. I don't think our staff could pull this offense off with the personnnel we have.

Yeah, that's why I asked the question in the original post if we would have the patience for the transition period. Although I remember when Johnson went to Tech, everybody thought they'd really struggle that first year and they didn't.

 

[deputydeacon]

Let's see Oregon put up 16 points against Arizona and Baylor put up 17 against Ok. State.:thumbsup:

Yeah and we scored 10 against BC, 19 against ULM, 7 vs. Clemson, 0 vs. 'Cuse, 3 vs. FSU, and 14 vs. Duke? So...that's not working out too well either.

 

[liveanddiedeac]

Yeah and we scored 10 against BC, 19 against ULM, 7 vs. Clemson, 0 vs. 'Cuse, 3 vs. FSU, and 14 vs. Duke? So...that's not working out too well either.

I was mainly kidding with you. I certainly don't think we've got the talent to run the Oregon and Baylor type offense's though.

 

[deputydeacon]

I agree with the majority of your statement. However, I do think a kid like Cameron could have some success in it. Obviously not as much as those previously mentioned but he would be serviceable. Josh Harris would have been a good RB in that offense and Camp would have been even better (if even possible) than he already was. Line play still becomes the ultimate issue.
We could debate these issues all day regarding scheme...but at the end of the day, coaching is about teaching two things: blocking and tackling. Games always boil down to those two things. Sometimes scheme doesn't matter...
p.s. No offense taken... and no offense this year, lol

 

[liveanddiedeac]

I agree with the majority of your statement. However, I do think a kid like Cameron could have some success in it. Obviously not as much as those previously mentioned but he would be serviceable. Josh Harris would have been a good RB in that offense and Camp would have been even better (if even possible) than he already was. Line play still becomes the ultimate issue.
We could debate these issues all day regarding scheme...but at the end of the day, coaching is about teaching two things: blocking and tackling. Games always boil down to those two things. Sometimes scheme doesn't matter...
p.s. No offense taken... and no offense this year, lol

It really does and I think you can look no further than Oregon to see that this is true. As good as Oregon has been for several years now, the one area we they aren't elite is on the offensive and defensive lines and that is what seems to keep them from winning it all.

 

[Pilchard]

Next year is going to be a disaster no matter what. Will this be the worst team since the '95 or '96 1-10 squad?

If the measuring stick is lack of interest, I agree, but could easily see WF winning 4+ games next year. Only two OOC games are presently known (at ULM and Army at home). ULM had 18 seniors including their QB; they will be weak. Army has sucked for a long time. WF will play a bad FCS team, and probably another crappy FBS team (no Vandy next year). Would not be surprised if WF won 3 of its 4 OOC games (and if Wellman schedules like he did in basketball, WF could get 4 OOC wins). State looks like it has a long way to go, and WF usually beats BC at home. Also, even with the loss of Nikita, the defense should be decent (not many teams will have two better returning corners than KJ and Bud). Believe me, I am not predicting big things for the 2014 football Deacs, but a 5-7 (2-6) season would not surprise me.

A lot of WF fans are understandably pissed about the football program right now, but next year is not going to be the 1-11 debacle some here are claiming.

 

[Wakeforest22890]

I thought Wake was playing Notre Dame next year.

I don't see why Wake would be expected to any better than 3-9 next year, we're going to be really really bad. Our corners will be fine, but the front seven is not going to be good whatsoever. We're going to be playing with a bad offensive line again, an inexperienced quarterback, an inexperienced running back, wide receivers who can't catch anything, and if Lobo doesn't get fired then we'll have a staff who is completely incompetent at running an offense that cracks the top 75 in the country.

 

[kellykirkland]

I love watching good option teams. With that said, the upside of running that offense at WF is probably limited to the level of success slightly below the level of success that GT has had under Paul Johnson. Johnson is a great coach, and a decent (but not great) recruiter. Also, GT is a school that faces some of the same recruiting perceptions/limitations that WF does, but GT does have the benefit of recruiting in a state (GA) with more HS football talent than NC with only other major school in the state. Also, GT is in Atlanta not Winston-Salem. This is Johnson's 6th year at GT (GT has finished the ACC 5-3 4 times; 4-4 once and 7-1 once). They played in a bowl each year, and have won an ACC title.

At WF, would guess Johnson would make a bowl about half of his seasons with a typical year in the 3-5/4-4 range. With a lesser coach than Johnson in that offense, a typical season could easily be worse (compare Navy to Army even though each school runs a similar offensive system and recruits in the same pool of players). After an initial excitement, it would not take long for a portion of the fanbase to rag about the plodding style of football. At least, WF would return to cut blocking.

Paul Johnson only won the ACC Championship with the previous coaches players.