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Turkey

When the police start arresting the golpistas and your democracy might be safe

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Islamists have taken to the streets. Mosque loudspeakers being used to get Erdogan supporters to take to the streets.
 
This is a nightmare. Not sure why Obama felt the need to pick a side four hours into the crisis. Same mistake he made in Egypt. If the military wins this might push them closer to Putin's orbit. And this is a NATO member we're talking about.

If Erdogan wins all the secular elements in the military will be ousted/executed, and he will finally become a full dictator of an Islamist state.
 
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Erdogan is about to be ten times crazier if he survives this, as it now looks he will. It's gonna make his 1,000 room palace and family profiting off ISIS oil look like nothing.
 
TR1982 said:
This is a nightmare. Not sure why Obama felt the need to pick a side four hours into the crisis. Same mistake he made in Egypt. If the military wins this might push them closer to Putin's orbit. And this is a NATO member we're talking about.

If Erdogan wins all the secular elements in the military will be ousted/executed, and he will finally become a full dictator of an Islamist state.
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He picked democracy. Isn't that what America is supposed to publicly support?
 
TR1982 said:
This is a nightmare. Not sure why Obama felt the need to pick a side four hours into the crisis. Same mistake he made in Egypt. If the military wins this might push them closer to Putin's orbit. And this is a NATO member we're talking about.

If Erdogan wins all the secular elements in the military will be ousted/executed, and he will finally become a full dictator of an Islamist state.
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Because it's long standing US policy to support democratically elected leaders.

And as long as the army is conscripted, it will be impossible to remove all the secular elements.
 
DistrictDeacon said:
Because it's long standing US policy to support democratically elected leaders.

And as long as the army is conscripted, it will be impossible to remove all the secular elements.
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Well that's just not even close to true. And yes, Erdogan can easily remove the secular elements. He has already begun; that's why this coup occurred. He court-martialed hundreds of high ranking secular officers recently. This coup will only make it easier for him.
 
PhDeac said:
He picked democracy. Isn't that what America is supposed to publicly support?
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America is supposed to support liberal values like freedom and tolerance, which is not what Erdogan represents at all. Either way, from a practical standpoint, it would have been a much better idea to let events unfold before instantly picking sides. Looks like Erdogan has won, which is lucky for the Obama administration, but unfortunately Kemalism now appears to be dead in Turkey, which is a huge blow to the West.
 
PhDeac said:
He picked democracy. Isn't that what America is supposed to publicly support?
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I disagree. Obama saw how things were going and wanted to protect our interests. Not blaming him. It's politics. But if the coup had succeeded it would have been like Egypt- we'd get along with the new leaders- who would have been easier to work with than Erdogan.
 
TR1982 said:
America is supposed to support liberal values like freedom and tolerance, which is not what Erdogan represents at all. Either way, from a practical standpoint, it would have been a much better idea to let events unfold before instantly picking sides. Looks like Erdogan has won, which is lucky for the Obama administration, but unfortunately Kemalism now appears to be dead in Turkey, which is a huge blow to the West.
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How does supporting coups promote freedom and tolerance?
 
PhDeac said:
How does supporting coups promote freedom and tolerance?
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Because Erdogan has been dismantling their democracy and concentrating power in his own hands? The Turkish constitution obliges the military to protect the secularism of the nation.
 
PhDeac said:
How does supporting coups promote freedom and tolerance?
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"Democracy" does not always equal freedom and tolerance. There are clearly circumstances where a coup is a legitimate way to promote freedom and tolerance.

That might seem foreign to us because our democracy has the structural safeguards (hopefully) to prevent a democratically elected leader from acting more like a dictator. Not every democracy does though.
 
RChildress107 said:
"Democracy" does not always equal freedom and tolerance. There are clearly circumstances where a coup is a legitimate way to promote freedom and tolerance.

That might seem foreign to us because our democracy has the structural safeguards (hopefully) to prevent a democratically elected leader from acting more like a dictator. Not every democracy does though.
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Sure. I think it's better for our government to have a set policy of favoring democracy but letting the chips fall and sorting out the rumble rather than be in the position of picking and choosing coups to support.
 
PhDeac said:
Sure. I think it's better for our government to have a set policy of favoring democracy but letting the chips fall and sorting out the rumble rather than be in the position of picking and choosing coups to support.
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I don't. I think our government should have a set policy of encouraging outcomes that move governments towards secular, democratic, liberal (in the global context) ideals. Blindly supporting "democratically" elected leaders doesn't accomplish that goal.
 
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