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Video Game Thread - $70 Zelda Expansion!

guy who plays lots of videogames and follows esports confused why people can't get into esports and tells them to try harder

Uh, okay? Weird post. Not really my point at all. You're the one trying to turn esports into a theoretical business model by making it more like the sports we see on TV. Clearly that's the only measure of success - got it.

At some level, I think the cultures are fundamentally irreconcilable. Put (perhaps too) simply, you can't take the gamer out of esports and still have esports.
 
You younger folks will encounter moments in your life that cause you to question "Am I really this out of the loop these days?" That a video game tournament was held at the Wang Theater for an entire week and seemed to get good attendance, based on looking at that video, is one of those moments for me.

RSF how was the actual attendance? I'm not finding any info to answer that via Googling.

I am 30 and felt this way reading that.
 
Any best in the world Rocket League matches you can link here? I played last night with a friend of a friend that has Challenger status or whatever and I'm not sure the ball touched the ground twenty times in five minutes (3v3). I might as well have been playing pickup with the Wizards.

Oh man. The pro Rocket League highlights will make you throw up. Those guys are outrageously good.

This isn't from a pro tournament, but just look at this.

https://gfycat.com/GlossyCooperativeFirefly
 
what would your measure of success be?

It certainly isn't altering how the games are presented so that people who don't give a shit can pretend to understand what's happening when they accidentally tune to ESPN one day and catch a DOTA game.

I'd say a portion of success can be measured in popularity and delivering content well to your audience. It seems like you think that's measured by whether or not you can see it on your TV. I'd argue that that's incorrect. With the exception of TBS' archaic ELEAGUE attempt, esports executives aren't concerned with TV time. Why? Because the business potential is in streaming video. Amazon purchased Twitch for $1 billion last year. Twitch provides gamers the opportunity to stream esports content for free. Every day, almost 10 million of them watch almost 2 hours of content. YouTube's trying to get in the game, too. Why? Because according to Fortune, over 470 million gamers watch online gaming content on a regular basis and that number will surpass 500 million viewers later this year. Seems like a lot of people are interested.

The popular medium is shifting. Why change the game/presentation of the game when you can digitally deliver to the audience that cares exactly what they want, when they want it?
 
seems like an exciting moment

"Esports" or broadcast companies need to figure out how to explain this shit to the Casuals and non-gamers. They should start by ending the row of blank faced dudes staring at screens and stop calling gamers by their tags.

Yeah. I think esports are going to be super lucrative (moreso than they already are) going forward, but I totally hear the "get this off espn" crowd, especially for MOBAs. It doesn't help, in this instance, that Dota (or LoL) are just super hard to follow as an observer unless you sorta know what's going on. Valve has actually tried to fix that gap in the past-- at the last 3 or 4 world championships, they've had a "noob-friendly" broadcast to help explain the basics.

On your first point - how would you change that? They have to play the game, and (at this point) that requires looking at a computer screen.

On your second point - handles are a part of the gamer culture -they're not going away anytime soon. Why do you think monikers are a barrier to mainstream acceptance? The NBA has Black Mamba, The Mailman, The Truth, etc.
1. I just mean not show the players while the game is happening. It's just weird and makes everyone look like a donk sitting in mom's basement.

2. It might be a part of the culture but it's huge barrier for people not in the culture. We don't refer to Kobe as "the black mamba" for all his endorsements, interviews, merchandise, etc. it's just a nickname, like in every sport. It's not like every time Arnold Palmer walked up to the first tee they announced "now on the tee. From Latrobe, PA: The King"
1. I think it's stranger to remove the human element and not show the players at all.

2. So essentially you're saying that you can't identify with a competitor unless you know his birth name? Interesting. I've always been fine with referring to well-known gamers by their handles like xPeke, Bjergsen and Faker. However, when I play with RSF, I call him by his real name, I don't call him RSF. I guess what I'm getting at is I don't have a problem with handles if I don't know the person. I'd wager that's a pretty typical viewpoint in gamer culture though. I see how it's not that common in physical sports. Weird divide.

1. Huh. I think one of the reasons that people got behind Ad Finem in this specific tournament, and why you see fans of specific players, is because of an emphasis on player personality over what's happening on the screen. You could see ssaspartan losing his shit every time the crowd got behind him, and the crowd fed off of that in kind. I think ITC is way off here; you need to remove the barrier between player and gameplay in order to grow the audience, but you also need more engaging and charismatic players. I didn't know who ssaspartan was a week ago, but I'm 100% going to be following him and his teammates in the next Dota Major.

2. I don't see that as a barrier at all. When you're watching individual guys in twitch (which, for the record, is how most pro gamers make their salaries), they're going by their usernames, because when they play the games... that's sort of how people playing the games are seeing them. I know maaaaaybe like 3 pro players' real names, and that's because they're built into the usernames, anyway. (Like, TC = Tyler Cook IIRC)

I call RSF by his boards name when I play w/ him.

I think you've played with me like twice, though. I thiiiiink TexasDeac10 calls me Nate? Most people I play with (like 90%?) do, usually. Though it was fun when I went by Intellectual Gronk on Steam and kory got everyone to call me granky. I liked that. CALL ME GRANKY.
 
Any best in the world Rocket League matches you can link here? I played last night with a friend of a friend that has Challenger status or whatever and I'm not sure the ball touched the ground twenty times in five minutes (3v3). I might as well have been playing pickup with the Wizards.

I watched Northern Gaming vs. Mock It Aces the other day (starts at 3 hour mark if link doesn't work): https://www.twitch.tv/rocketleague/v/105220750

Highly entertaining match-up that went back and forth and was the first semifinal match to go to 7 games. Northern Gaming one of my favorite teams tactically in terms of applying pressure.
 
In terms of measuring success of esports: Maybe look at the explosion of prize pools

http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

This year's International tournament popped $20MM, with the winners taking $9MM. That's more than 4x as much as any golf tournament paid out to a winner this year.
 
I should have also devoted some of my post to making an explicit separation between MOBA's and perhaps more intuitive video games like Rocket League.

I played a lot of MOBA (LoL) a few years ago, so my viewpoint in undoubtedly skewed toward it when discussing esports. Both kinds of game support electronic competition, but I have serious doubts that you'll ever be able to quickly AND sufficiently explain a MOBA to an uninterested audience. Accomplishing this with Rocket League is pretty simple. Elementally, it's soccer with cars. With games like this, you could have some measure of success in the world of television - if it was framed correctly. There's a reason TBS' ELEAGUE didn't focus on MOBAs though.

I'd simplify it as: MOBAs are tricky to learn, impossible to master; FPS, Hearthstone and Rocket League are relatively simple to learn, impossible to master.
 
Yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at initially. You can't air a MOBA on ESPN and expect it to catch on because it's so dense and the barrier to understand what's happening is significant. Rocket League or an FPS or a sports game, though? Those are all sorta intuitive from the get-go.
 
i don't think that's true at all. rocket league is basically soccer, yes. super easy.

but MOBAs are not that different from American Football, people just need to understand what the roles and rules are.
 
i don't think that's true at all. rocket league is basically soccer, yes. super easy.

but MOBAs are not that different from American Football, people just need to understand what the roles and rules are.

A little simplistic. They also need to understand the difference between multiple controllable heroes, what unique skills they have, how that affects solo and team combat. In addition, the audience probably needs to be aware of what items can be purchased in the shop, more importantly what they do (this changes from patch to patch), and what item build paths should be followed in reaction to what heroes the enemy team is controlling, and how these items change the unique skills of each hero when complete. I'm not going to get into the strategy behind warding - or the limiting effect the fog of war has on game strategy.

Without an understanding of the above, as an audience member you'll essentially just see pieces moving around the board - scuffling every now and then - perhaps you understand the "goal" of a MOBA: destroy the nexus - but the roles and rules are borne out of a more complete understanding of how these pieces (heroes, items, wards) interact with each other. If you don't have the background knowledge for these pieces, you're going to be very lost.

This is not really American Football.
 
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A little simplistic. They also need to understand the difference between multiple controllable heroes, what unique skills they have, how that affects solo and team combat. In addition, the audience probably needs to be aware of what items can be purchased in the shop, more importantly what they do (this changes from patch to patch), and what item build paths should be followed in reaction to what heroes the enemy team is controlling, and how these items change the unique skills of each hero when complete. I'm not going to get into the strategy behind warding - or the limiting effect the fog of war has on game strategy.

This is not really American Football.

do people need to understand the roll of the Center vs Lineman or TE fully or defensive packages or audibles to watch and enjoy football? or clock management? or 4th down punt vs go decisions?
 
i don't think that's true at all. rocket league is basically soccer, yes. super easy.

but MOBAs are not that different from American Football, people just need to understand what the roles and rules are.

How do you propose that's explained to a casual viewer, though? American football is institutionalized to an extent, and has been for nearly a century. MOBAs don't have a ball. The "score" is deceptive and not even a victory condition. They also aren't standardized, in the sense that there are harsh differences between different MOBA games, and even internally, visual effects can be inconsistent and hard to recognize.

I think, conceptually, it's fine and easy to explain. ("Each team has 5 players, and they're trying to destroy the other's base, each of which is spawning enemies.") The problem is linking those concepts to what's going on in the game, and explaining why the game action is strategically and conceptually sound.
 
How do you propose that's explained to a casual viewer, though? American football is institutionalized to an extent, and has been for nearly a century. MOBAs don't have a ball. The "score" is deceptive and not even a victory condition. They also aren't standardized, in the sense that there are harsh differences between different MOBA games, and even internally, visual effects can be inconsistent and hard to recognize.

I think, conceptually, it's fine and easy to explain. ("Each team has 5 players, and they're trying to destroy the other's base, each of which is spawning enemies.") The problem is linking those concepts to what's going on in the game, and explaining why the game action is strategically and conceptually sound.

you don't think it can be institutionalized over time? I do

I don't play MOBAs but I understand the vocabulary. If it's dumbed down and put on tv, people will start to understand. The mass-market audiences can get their idiot version and the hardcore can tune in to almost customized coverage (twitch channels,VR broadcasts, etc.)
 
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I think you've played with me like twice, though. I thiiiiink TexasDeac10 calls me Nate? Most people I play with (like 90%?) do, usually. Though it was fun when I went by Intellectual Gronk on Steam and kory got everyone to call me granky. I liked that. CALL ME GRANKY.

I was joking mang, I pretty much just called you Nate too fwiw (maybe you should make that your screen name!?). And we've played together at least 3 times! I'm hurt you don't remember that.
 
this thread is now about my name

also, man I was feeling myself in rocket league last night, that was some good shit. of course now next game I'll probably whiff on every touch, but we'll always have last night

ALSO, the doto 7.00 update came out last night, and I don't really know how I feel about it. it doesn't feel like the same game, and not just at a balance level, but at a fundamental "this is a different game than the one I've played for the past decade-plus" level. the map has undergone some minor changes in the past, but nothing like this. I don't mind the new "talent" trees, and the balance changes all seem fine, but fuck, they messed with xp scaling, and jungle pathing, and the HUD redesign, and ughhh. if they had maybe introduced some of this stuff in waves, that'd be one thing, but all at once, it's a little jarring.
 
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