We need a little Northwestern game noise
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deacfan78
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I don't think anyone is disputing this. We are incrementally better now than the [Redacted] years but far from where we need to be to match Odom, Prosser and even Gaudio success.
We were in an historically bad position at the end of the asshole's tenure. The cupboard was basically bare. I've been watching Wake basketball for over 45 years. Last season, we had the worst wings Wake has had over that period. It takes time to bounce back from that. It sucks but it's real.
Like many others, I said this year would be a struggle. Next year is the key.
I understand that Bz left us with nothing but Devin, and The Program had to be burned to the ground and rebuilt. Also, I understood it would probably take 3-4 years before we get to the postseason. Furthermore, I do agree DM has brought in talent that can compete in the ACC. However, during the 2+ years DM has been here, he has not demonstrated any improvement in his coaching abilities. We are making the same fundamental mistakes as in Year 1, but with more talented players.
VTech hired Bz Williams either the same year as DM or 1 year after, and one could argue their program was worse than ours. However, last season they showed improvement because they are well coached. All I am saying is compare our progress this season to VTech's, and see where each one is when the season is over. If we are at the bottom of the ACC again, and VTech is in the postseason, then how will y'all feel about DM then?
deacfan78
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I think it was DV7 that said Wake never should have been put in a position to hire a head coach with only 2 years experience. He was right. Unfortunately, Wellman and [Redacted] anal raped Wake Forest Basketball (and each other) and it appears that Manning was the best we could do.
Explain to me how a coach who hasn't improved was able to take a team with zero Top 50 players and get them in the Top 10 in two major offensive categories and in the Top 25 in two others for 20% of the season.
I'm not saying Danny is the answer. But your premise is flawed.
RE: Buzz Williams - we didn't have the option of hiring him. He contacted friends at VT while the HC at Marquette. His move was one of the biggest surprises in college coaching in many years. VT had better players in their pipeline when Buzz took over then we did. That's why they are ahead of us now.
I know people like to hear reality, but I'll give you some more. Recruiting used to really start early or mid-junior season. With AAU and other traveling teams, it starts in 9th or 10th grade now. Look at what Chaundee Brown said about Wake being with him so early. When Buzz moved from Marquette to VT, he already had massive ties to top talent. Being at Tulsa, Danny couldn't go after top talent for those years. He had to start over.
I grant you this frosh class is disappointing, but Keyshawn is new and so is Austin. That mitigates it a little. If Danny can't get more stars like Chaundee in his next class, then there is reason to worry.
I'm not saying Danny is the answer. But your premise is flawed.
RE: Buzz Williams - we didn't have the option of hiring him. He contacted friends at VT while the HC at Marquette. His move was one of the biggest surprises in college coaching in many years. VT had better players in their pipeline when Buzz took over then we did. That's why they are ahead of us now.
I know people like to hear reality, but I'll give you some more. Recruiting used to really start early or mid-junior season. With AAU and other traveling teams, it starts in 9th or 10th grade now. Look at what Chaundee Brown said about Wake being with him so early. When Buzz moved from Marquette to VT, he already had massive ties to top talent. Being at Tulsa, Danny couldn't go after top talent for those years. He had to start over.
I grant you this frosh class is disappointing, but Keyshawn is new and so is Austin. That mitigates it a little. If Danny can't get more stars like Chaundee in his next class, then there is reason to worry.
I would agree with this 100% before VTech hired Williams. Before Bz at least we had a 20 year period of being a Top 20 Program, and we were at least a "Brand Name" that had fallen on hard times. On the other hand, VTech has had very little success as a basketball program, but were able to hire a great coach.
To me the question is how many coaches actually want to work with Wellmen?
In addition to the fuck up with his wife, Shaka wasn't all that happy to have to come in and lose for 2-3 years, but would have tried. Hatch really fucked that one up.
Remember Buzz was never an option.
The great Ben Howland had much more talent than we did and didn't sniff .500 in the ultra-weak SEC last year. Thus far this year, Ben has lost to UCF and Lehigh with an experienced team and top recruiting class. Plus, he's a total asshole, who will likely barely last his contract before alienating the entire community. But he has sucked so far.
Other than Archie Miller who was out there?
Danny had a primo pedigree.
Recruiting is only part of the job as a HC. Once you get talent you have to develop it and be able to coach in game with it. I don't see DM doing the latter. Heck, Dino was a great recruiter, but not a great coach. The 08-09 team that was ranked #1 had 4 future NBA players on it, but we couldn't win either a ACC or NCAA Tournament Game because Dino didn't know how to develop and coach what he had recruited.
Deacsfan27
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Can we just give him some damn time? Holy shit.
He has in-game coaching deficiencies, we all agree with that. I agree that he needs an experienced head coach to sit next to him and help out with in-game management (subs, situational stuff, timeouts, foul trouble, etc).
For those of you who want him gone, literally want to fire him, what's your plan? Fire him today, and then what? Who do we hire? Do we keep Collins/Crawford/Brown? Do we concern ourselves with that? Why would a coach come here after we've fired 3 coaches in 6 years?
We would literally be starting over AGAIN, 6 1/2 years later. We are clearly in a better place with Manning than we were before Manning, so let's just give him time to try to figure it out.
Next year we have two juniors who are All-ACC caliber, along with a possible McDonalds All-American. If we can't get to the tournament next year then fine, fire his ass, but good lord, now, or even after this season if we go .500 isn't the right damn time.
He has in-game coaching deficiencies, we all agree with that. I agree that he needs an experienced head coach to sit next to him and help out with in-game management (subs, situational stuff, timeouts, foul trouble, etc).
For those of you who want him gone, literally want to fire him, what's your plan? Fire him today, and then what? Who do we hire? Do we keep Collins/Crawford/Brown? Do we concern ourselves with that? Why would a coach come here after we've fired 3 coaches in 6 years?
We would literally be starting over AGAIN, 6 1/2 years later. We are clearly in a better place with Manning than we were before Manning, so let's just give him time to try to figure it out.
Next year we have two juniors who are All-ACC caliber, along with a possible McDonalds All-American. If we can't get to the tournament next year then fine, fire his ass, but good lord, now, or even after this season if we go .500 isn't the right damn time.
deacfan78
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Agreed. Manning is already better than [Redacted]. He's learning on the job. He'll get us there or he won't, but 2 + years is not enough time to tell.
PaddyWF
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We have some talent. But that doesn't make a good team. We make the kind of mistakes that sink teams, even talented ones. Poor defense, turnovers, avoidable fouls. The one huge improvement is free-throw shooting. You will have up & down shooting nights, but if we don't fix these problems, we will continue to lose road games to mediocre teams and will not make much progress in conference. It's these small things that keep you in games when you have an off night. We best ourselves so many games with this, you have to play lights out offensively. That's impossible to do consistently. That's why we will continue to struggle against average teams and compete with the good ones but will struggle to close out games.
morrison2951
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Yep, but truth be told, any damn one of us is better than [name redacted]. :tard:
Unless you are not counting the NCAA's.
Of course I do recall a bad home loss to DePaul and I could probably find a few others.
After the Coastal game, DM said he was going to have two brutal practices after the break, looks like they didn't pick up much from that if that was in fact the case.
I know people want to vent, but where were all these negative comments before last night? One loss, not even really a bad loss based on the relative quality of the team we played, and people are acting like we lost to Stetson at home.
simosfrostyone
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Maybe we all see a whole lot of ACC losses on the horizon. If we can't stop NW from getting lay up after lay up, what will we do against real athletes?
TUA01576
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This is just not true. In the 2004-2005 season we lost on the road to an FSU team that went 12-19 and didn't make any post season. I will go on record right now and say northwestern at least makes the NIT. People it was a road game in the end of November against a quality opponent.
Sets? We have one set. Pick and roll right or left, if it's not there reverse the ball and start over. No set plays. None. It's motion offense with very little structure. We are so easy to scout it's ridiculous.
simosfrostyone
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Forget what NW may or may not be. What did you see on the court (other than Collins being unstoppable) that you liked about our team or coach?
TUA01576
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Why are we taking John Collins out of the equation though? I have enough of an understanding of basketball to realize nights like this happen to every team on every level, at some point in the season. The key is to not let it affect the next game and become the norm. If Crawford continues to nearly double double with turnovers, and we shoot that poorly from the perimeter, it's time to get nervous. We lost to the number 2 team in the nation where we looked good offensively but nova was just on another planet (and are returning a lot from last years natty). We lost a game where as a whole we looked awful. We won all of our other games, granted against weak competition so it's hard to get a feel. Just because we looked bad last night , does not mean we are doomed for the season. Let it play out. A year ago Indiana likely wanted Creen fired after his loaded roster lost to our shit team. They rallied, played better against much better competition than us and made the sweet 16. Don't let a road game in November define our season that just started.
Problem is Collins was stoppable. His teammates stopped him when they quit looking to play inside-out.