liveanddiedeac
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Steve in a suit don’t look right.
WF Game 9: NJ Institute of Technology - 8 pm Saturday ACCN
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Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
I’m intrigued by Forbes comment about he’s been told the “margin” caps at 15 but “efficiency still matters.” We know the latter is true since the NET is transparent on that calculation. The former, I have no idea where it comes in - I guess on the TVI aspect (wins over quality opponents?) where you get more of a boost for winning, but capped at 15? I’m just curious there because the only stated factors that go into TVI that the NET has released are: 1) opponent, 2) location, 3) game result. Could be an aspect of 3). Dead horse, but we have no idea because there’s no transparency at all on how this nebulous TVI gets calculated
That last few minutes were the most interesting part of the press conference. It’s clear that Forbes hates having to run up the score and thinks it’s bad for the game, but that he also understands that every possession matters in the metrics, regardless of whether your starters or your walk ons are on the floor.
I would imagine there are a lot of coaches who feel the same way.
I would imagine there are a lot of coaches who feel the same way.
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
I think capping margin makes sense but I wouldn’t do it at the point where it would’ve made a difference last night. 20 points is way too low to cap it. I’d go like 30 (and just remove possessions that occur in a game with a 30 point margin).
WindyCityDeac
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My guess is it’s less about running up scores and more about feeling like you can’t use walk-ons/deep bench guys.
Every coach would love to get some freshman some minutes in case you need them down the line. I think any comments about “running it up” is just fan service
Frosty
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Yeah putting in the walk-ons has to be great for locker room morale too. The most enthusiastic people in the Joel when Dunn got a bucket and then ran the floor and pulled a rebound were the scholarship players on the bench.
EssexThayer
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I think Zach Keller has shown massive improvement. Talked about this on the BOTG Pod, but I see him being the primary backup center behind Efton. Could also potentially see him giving some minutes at the 4 for a big lineup.
His rebounding aggressiveness is growing, he's a shooting threat for his size. Efton talked about his confidence after Rutgers, and Forbes mentioned it last night. Learning how to build that is a process. Keller is young, it takes time. But I feel a lot better about his position than I did early in the season.
EssexThayer
Well-known member
A stretch of my game story explaining this move. Metrics has become such a big thing that it took NJIT's coach clearing his bench for Steve Forbes to feel comfortable doing the same:
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So, even with the game in hand, Wake Forest kept working to reach a semi-invisible goal. With 58 seconds on the clock, NJIT head coach Grant Billmeier cleared his bench, finally giving Forbes the opportunity to do the same.
Even in that final moment, though, the Demon Deacons still prospered. Friedrichsen hit another three — Wake Forest couldn’t play a full walk-on lineup because of an injury to RJ Kennah — and Kevin Dunn scored his first collegiate points on a nifty layup.
“I hate that,” Forbes said. “I don’t like it. Honest truth is, if Grant had not put his in, I wouldn’t have put mine in. I’m just being honest. This is where we’re at. I despise it. Because I really like those kids [the walk-ons]. But, you know, can’t do it.”
WakeForest Fan
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good article essex
also, not that my opinion matters for anything, i like forbes. just in general. the guy tells it like it is
Essex- also appreciative of the coverage and the pod. I’d be hard pressed to think of the last time I wanted a coach to succeed as much as I want Forbes to. He’s a genuinely good guy- and in a different way than say, Jim Caldwell, who I thought was also a nice man but I wanted to move on to another profession.
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Wakelaw2006
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John Buck dunks on UVA! One of my favorite memories from Wake basketball (2005, I think) and it was more about the reaction from the bench (Downey and Big E in particular if I recall correctly) than anything else.
EatLeadCommie
Tommy Elrod
No. And I don't know why he got the minutes that should've gone to Marsh. Forbes seems intent to die on the Keller hill.
The box score says he played 19 minutes (Marsh played 5), and I'd submit that there was one 30-45 second stretch where he had some hustle and made a basket and a rebound and looked competent. But then I remind myself that he was in for half the game and NJIT is a legitimately horrible team.
Keller has a decent stroke from outside but no instincts inside for rebounding or scoring. Or if he does, he hasn't shown it in plenty of minutes. He again positioned himself poorly for rebounds or not at all. He missed one or two that bricked and came straight to him. He had one or two that bricked and came straight to him. The brief stretch of good play was him hustling to get under the basket and get one because we had nobody else there (a common issue with this team). It was at a pretty big moment in the game though, so there is that.
Efton needs to play smarter and not get in foul trouble. Every team is going to target him, and he can't give away freebies last night like he was.
Wakeforest22890
Snowpom
Keller had a very solid game overall and had a lot of effort otherwise lacking inside. His offensive skill set is way above Marsh’s overall and I have no problem with Keller getting a lot of his minutes (especially since they’re not the same role when they’re in). Keller’s D is suspect yes
IamThunderbolt
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Keller only hit 1 more 3 than Marsh. 😉
I don’t dislike Keller and I think he has a higher ceiling than Marsh and worth investing in now, but he is basically an unathletic 4, which makes him an undersized 5 with range.
His effort has tripled in the late two games spelling Reid and is better on the boards because of it (especially recognizing when he won’t get it and just knocking it back to the guards).
His defense is the only part that is just really bad. It’s not just strength in the post, it’s that he gets lost of the other person makes a move at all - whether on the ball in the post or getting lost and beat for an easy roll to the basket by his man. That might improve as he stops thinking about defense and just starts playing, but the game is too fast for him now and it shows. Effort is there, but not fully following the flow of the game.
I don’t dislike Keller and I think he has a higher ceiling than Marsh and worth investing in now, but he is basically an unathletic 4, which makes him an undersized 5 with range.
His effort has tripled in the late two games spelling Reid and is better on the boards because of it (especially recognizing when he won’t get it and just knocking it back to the guards).
His defense is the only part that is just really bad. It’s not just strength in the post, it’s that he gets lost of the other person makes a move at all - whether on the ball in the post or getting lost and beat for an easy roll to the basket by his man. That might improve as he stops thinking about defense and just starts playing, but the game is too fast for him now and it shows. Effort is there, but not fully following the flow of the game.
thatguy2016
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I’m also intrigued but heartened that Forbes is 100% on board with not clearing the bench, because it unfortunately impacts the metrics too much.
Totally agree.
Deaconblue
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When you are playing the five position, your game has to be inside out.