Why Manning has a tough road to rebuilding Wake Basketball

[KVegasDeac]

So they need to be eligible for a semester right? That's one for the summer when they get there, and then another in the fall. That makes 2 classes at Duke, and 2 classes at NCCU for 12 credit hours.

I think you are correct in the fact that academic support is what is needed the most, but the NCCU partnership no doubt helps out.

This is correct. A pretty fair portion of their classes are taken at NCCU, most of them online.

I have no issue with it. Wake would benefit greatly from developing something like this. It IS academic support.

Instead of forcing a player to take an 8:00 class because it's the only section offered that semester and it's the class they need, players have the option to take the class online somewhere else. That is appealing to recruits- especially when, let's say, Jeff Capel sits down with Harry Giles and explains to him that he won't have to worry about making an 8:00 class that he's missed for the last week after getting in at 3:00 am from a road trip- he can keep up online.

 

[KVegasDeac]

I think you pretty much have to exclude large state universities, even those very highly ranked, because there are easier programs in which you can hide athletes. UCLA is a top 10 ranked public school, but you can't tell me athletes are not loading up on classes/programs you don't have at WFU or other highly rated smaller private schools.

Absolutely. This is 100% correct.

 

[Deacon923]

Isn't there currently some degree of reciprocity with Salem and WSSU? When I was at Wake (mid to late 90s), I had a fraternity brother who would take classes at Salem. Supposedly, if you could prove the Wake class doesn't fit in your schedule, you could take it at Salem or WSSU.

i took a class at Salem. As i recall I had to show that the class wasn't offered at Wake (this was History of the Holocaust - very interesting course), not that it didn't fit my schedule. I don't think that works for basic general education courses, though. kids are not going to be able to slide over to WSSU or Salem to take a less rigorous version of English 101 or Spanish, because those classes are on offer at Wake.

 

[Pilchard]

DC Deac is on point.

Look at the roster of the current WF team (including those that didn't make through the season or were suspended for part of the season). With all due respect, DM and Bz didn't recruit a bunch of players waffling between academic and athletic scholarships. The WF admissions department has and will admit essentially any kid that qualifies out of HS (and there are players on the roster that it came right down to their last standardized test to get in). There is no doubt that as a smaller school, WF student athletes have to take (for the most part) legit classes. With that said, WF has not had a big problem keeping kids eligible (some credit needs to be given to the academic support system in place, and the professors that are athletic department friendly - every school has those and WF is not an exception).

Understand that Duke has players taking classes at NCCU, but that is not why Giles and every other Duke recruit picked Duke over WF. Those that claim that WF's admission standards or course requirements are keeping WF from recruiting better players are grasping at straws. WF is recruiting from the same pool of kids as all the other schools that are kicking our arse right now. The problem is that WF made the worst imaginable choice for a head coach in 2010, and WF still has not recovered from that decision. Those claiming that WF academic requirements are a material cause for the recent downturn in basketball are missing the mark.

 

[scooter84]

DC Deac is on point.

Look at the roster of the current WF team (including those that didn't make through the season or were suspended for part of the season). With all due respect, DM and Bz didn't recruit a bunch of players waffling between academic and athletic scholarships. The WF admissions department has and will admit essentially any kid that qualifies out of HS (and there are players on the roster that it came right down to their last standardized test to get in). There is no doubt that as a smaller school, WF student athletes have to take (for the most part) legit classes. With that said, WF has not had a big problem keeping kids eligible (some credit needs to be given to the academic support system in place, and the professors that are athletic department friendly - every school has those and WF is not an exception).

Understand that Duke has players taking classes at NCCU, but that is not why Giles and every other Duke recruit picked Duke over WF. Those that claim that WF's admission standards or course requirements are keeping WF from recruiting better players are grasping at straws. WF is recruiting from the same pool of kids as all the other schools that are kicking our arse right now. The problem is that WF made the worst imaginable choice for a head coach in 2010, and WF still has not recovered from that decision. Those claiming that WF academic requirements are a material cause for the recent downturn in basketball are missing the mark.

I agree with most of this and have said that our academic rigor cannot be used as an excuse for our terrible-ness. We have overcome it before and, I believe, will so again.

But, to deny that it has an impact is also inaccurate. I am not saying it prevents us from recruiting kids or getting them admitted - I am sure there are some kids that we can't get in school that other schools can, but I believe that is a small number and not worth worrying about. But, that is not to say that it does not impact the kids' decisions. In addition to the info they get while being recruited - kids talk to one another and to players already in programs. They know that Duke has the NCCU deal and that Wake does not have such a deal. They know that there just aren't many places to hide at Wake academically. They hear the rumors about Work Forest... Whatever. I don't know if it really costs us recruits or not - or if it is a significant impact or not. But, I feel safe saying that there is an impact there.

And, by the way, I am not complaining. I don't think we should go cutting a bunch of academic corners to improve the basketball program. We will get back to where we were - hopefully under Manning, if not, hopefully under the next guy.

 

[marquee moon]

change title to "why manning will fail"

 

[Dkin]

This is correct. A pretty fair portion of their classes are taken at NCCU, most of them online.

I have no issue with it. Wake would benefit greatly from developing something like this. It IS academic support.

Instead of forcing a player to take an 8:00 class because it's the only section offered that semester and it's the class they need, players have the option to take the class online somewhere else. That is appealing to recruits- especially when, let's say, Jeff Capel sits down with Harry Giles and explains to him that he won't have to worry about making an 8:00 class that he's missed for the last week after getting in at 3:00 am from a road trip- he can keep up online.

He's no stranger to online education.

 

[Deaconblue]

No one of the many issues mentioned previously is that big of a deal, but each one does impact potential recruits and Wake student athletes. Admissions, small school, perceived "second tier" athletics, level of difficulty of classes, limited opportunity to "hide" in a small school, expectation to take a foreign language, perception of Wake as academically difficult and athlete "unfriendly" and the apparent lack of an obvious "easy path" to graduation for athletes all play a role in the recruitment process. Can this be overcome? Sure, but it takes a very nuanced understanding of Wake and student athletes. Skip Prosser really seemed to have it. Danny's college experience, and much of his coaching experience was "big state school" Kansas, with elite basketball history. He may be on a learning curve in the area of how to take the realities that are Wake Forest and turn them to his advantage in recruiting BB players.

Tulsa, where Manning coached prior to Wake, is a lot more similar to Wake than I would have guessed. 4700 students (3500 undergrad), founded as a religious school (Presbyterian Henry Kendall College), moved locations and became secular in 1907, with the name changed in 1920. So Danny had at least a taste of small school atmosphere before arriving at Wake.

Perhaps some of Danny's lack of overt emotional displays on the court was part of his effort to keep Devin from exploding. Setting a good example for the young man. Maybe with Devin gone, he will feel its OK to be more demonstrative with officials when he perceives them to be incorrect. By not whining and complaining about everything as a new coach, he may be able to be listened to more when he does complain in future seasons. Long game, not short game.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I hope Danny didn't determine his sideline activity level based on one of his players.

 

[olddke]

duke players taking classes at nccu!!!! is one of the dumbest, bitchiest lines I've seen around here. Any student can take 1 class per semester at nccu, unc, state, etc. if it's not offered at duke. That isn't keeping kids eligible, a good academic support program is.

A three or four credit A on a 12 hour load is real help.

 

[bobknightfan]

The best thing might be for the NCAA to just stop all the wink-wink pretenses that college basketball is played by student-athletes today....and simply end all academic requirements completely. Just free the schools to hire any players they can get, just like they would with any other employees. That seems to be the direction more & more fans want to go anyway. That would make it fair for everyone. Nobody would have to worry about breaking any rules or players having to go across town to take an easier class. They wouldn't have to take any classes at all. Of course, some deep pocket schools would probably drive up the price for the best players....but that's kind of the way it is now. Schools could raise money by getting some local corporations to sponsor teams. Maybe Krispy Kreme would want to get its name on the local WF team's jersey. Why not? Wake has already sold the football stadium & the football field, for example...so why not sell the team itself? Takes money to win, you know. Everything would just be out in the open, so you wouldn't have to sneak around and worry about getting caught breaking any rules....or pretending that the game is still being played by student-athletes.

 

[DCDeac]

The fact that some feel we are "above" what the likes of Duke, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame and Stanford do to stay competitive in high-level DI athletics is pathetic.

Wait, what do you think those programs are doing? Stanford has much higher rigor for their athletes than we do. Cornelius Hudson would have had absolutely zero chance of playing basketball at Stanford. Duke only recently began matching us with exemptions for football. Notre Dame fans have been clamoring for years to relax their football academic standards - their SAT averages are some of the highest in the NCAA's (or were as of a few years ago).

This argument is so overblown.