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At least 172 Palestinians killed, 1,280 injured, UN says 77% are civilians

Not to get too abstract, but the notion of "eliminating" a terrorist group is itself flawed. Terrorism is as much an idea that influences politics as it is the people who make it up. Actually to put it further, terrorism IS politics. Terrorism can be contained, but killing each and every card-carrying member of Hamas is not going to change anything unless there is some kind of changed circumstances and superior alternative.
 
P4nthers11 said:
Not to get too abstract, but the notion of "eliminating" a terrorist group is itself flawed. Terrorism is as much an idea that influences politics as it is the people who make it up. Actually to put it further, terrorism IS politics. Terrorism can be contained, but killing each and every card-carrying member of Hamas is not going to change anything unless there is some kind of changed circumstances and superior alternative.
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If videos starting appearing of Palestinians confronting and being killed by Hamas how do you think their recruiting would change? How about their funding? Do you think they could remain a potent force in the territories in the long run if this was a regular occurrence?
 
What if videos started appearing of my aunt having balls?

Palestinians have been treated like crap for a very long time. That has allowed a terrorist group to flourish. If the Israelis improved conditions in Gaza, Hamas would fade away.
 
PhDeac said:
What if videos started appearing of my aunt having balls?

Palestinians have been treated like crap for a very long time. That has allowed a terrorist group to flourish. If the Israelis improved conditions in Gaza, Hamas would fade away.
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I hope you're right but, as I said in my earlier post, I'm not that optimistic. I don't think that either part of that will ever happen.
 
True. I should have included that in the first part.
 
Btw, I'm not naive, I know the Israelis have an internal problem population to deal with as well.
 
The Mangler said:
I hope you're right but, as I said in my earlier post, I'm not that optimistic...
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yeah, I agree that the situation isn't nearly as simple as that. Even if there was a free Palestinian state, Hamas would still exist or be folded into another organization. I agree with RJ and others that the Palestinian state must recognize the existence of Israel before any concessions can be made. Israel has a tiger by the tail, and it makes sense for them to seek an armistice before letting go, the key being that they eventually have to free Palestine.
 
Wakeforest22890 said:
I don't believe that Hamas should be firing rockets at Israel, but I also don't believe that Israel should have rounded up 100's of people affiliated with Hamas when another group claimed responsibility. Israel prodded the bear here which escalated the rocket attacks.
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Dude. How do you escalate what has been going on for over a decade pretty much non-stop. Israel pulled out of Gaza 9 years ago. Since then Hamas has done nothing but what their charter demands - try to destroy Israel. 12,000 rockets over a 12 year period. That's like 3 a fucking day. It's insane. One group has the stated goal to destroy the other. And they act on that goal. All the fucking time. This isn't hard. Hamas is complete and utter bullshit. And anyone who tries to equivocate is fucking dumb.

The ONLY way out of this mess is for the international community to come down hard on Hamas. But with so many people parroting Hamas talking points these days, that isn't about to happen.
 
myDeaconmyhand said:
yeah, I agree that the situation isn't nearly as simple as that. Even if there was a free Palestinian state, Hamas would still exist or be folded into another organization. I agree with RJ and others that the Palestinian state must recognize the existence of Israel before any concessions can be made. Israel has a tiger by the tail, and it makes sense for them to seek an armistice before letting go, the key being that they eventually have to free Palestine.
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Bingo. The "extremists" in Israel can be far more easily controlled than can Hamas. But so long as Hamas is the party with whom Israel is supposed to find a 2 state solution there will be NO solution. That's because Hamas doesn't have any interest in a two state solution. They want to kill all the Jews and then come after all of us other "infidels" - i.e. anyone who isn't a Muslim.
 
DeacMan said:
Dude. How do you escalate what has been going on for over a decade pretty much non-stop. Israel pulled out of Gaza 9 years ago. Since then Hamas has done nothing but what their charter demands - try to destroy Israel. 12,000 rockets over a 12 year period. That's like 3 a fucking day. It's insane. One group has the stated goal to destroy the other. And they act on that goal. All the fucking time. This isn't hard. Hamas is complete and utter bullshit. And anyone who tries to equivocate is fucking dumb.

The ONLY way out of this mess is for the international community to come down hard on Hamas. But with so many people parroting Hamas talking points these days, that isn't about to happen.
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Yeah, numbers. You're dumb!
 
I'll ask again...
DeaconSig said:
DeacMan- would Israel be within its rights to kill everyone in Gaza?
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DeaconSig said:
Nice dodge of the question. You say that Israel has made a measured response- and that may be true. But I am asking whether you think Israel is within their rights to clean out Gaza of every Palestinian living there.
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DeacMan said:
Bingo. The "extremists" in Israel can be far more easily controlled than can Hamas. But so long as Hamas is the party with whom Israel is supposed to find a 2 state solution there will be NO solution. That's because Hamas doesn't have any interest in a two state solution. They want to kill all the Jews and then come after all of us other "infidels" - i.e. anyone who isn't a Muslim.
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The more and more that I read, the more that I believe that neither Israel or Palestine support a Two-State solution.

"Two additional reservations also arise from the latest Haaretz survey. The first is that the Israeli public is seemingly unfamiliar with the geopolitical situation. When the implications of partition and the specifics of an agreement were presented to the respondents – “The establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 boundaries with border modifications, most of the settlements to be annexed to Israel, Jerusalem to be divided and no return of refugees” – support for the two-state solution plummeted to 35 percent, with 58 percent replying in the negative. This time, the term “prime minister” was omitted as the individual who backs the agreement. The implication of this is that great responsibility falls on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as large segments of the public view his acceptance of an agreement involving partition as a precondition for their support."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601996

"Since hawkish pro-Israel views are better represented in the United States than pro-Palestinian views, a comparable finding in Palestinian public opinion has been somewhat more publicized. In this case, a survey taken before the latest outbreak of fighting by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy found that 60 percent of Palestinians say the goal of their national movement should be "to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea" compared to just 27 percent who endorse the idea that they should work "to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two state solution." WINEP tells Scheindlin that "this is a new finding compared to similar (but not identical) questions asked in the past, when support for a two-state solution typically ranged between 40-55 percent.""

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/16/5897921/one-thing-israelis-and-palestinians-agree-on-they-dont-like-the-two
 
I've literally said multiple times, upwards of maybe 10 that NOBODY, including me, is SUPPORTING HAMAS.

Yet somehow my comment gets a response that discusses me "parroting Hamas talking points."

I mean nothing I've said can even remotely be construed as me supporting a terrorist organization.
 
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Being somewhat anti-Israel does not equal either (a) being anti-Semitic or (b) that I am pro-Hamas.
 
Semite or ( less commonly ) Shemite (ˈsiːmaɪt)

— n
1. a member of the group of Caucasoid peoples who speak a Semitic language, including the Jews and Arabs as well as the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians, and Phoenicians

Not to be a buzz kill to those up in arms about anti-semitism, but you are using that word incorrectly. I know that it has morphed into anit jew, but the root word itself would include groups that Israel opposes. (So I guess theoretically Israel is anti-semitic... hmmm...)

As you were.
 
DeacMan said:
Dude. How do you escalate what has been going on for over a decade pretty much non-stop. Israel pulled out of Gaza 9 years ago. Since then Hamas has done nothing but what their charter demands - try to destroy Israel. 12,000 rockets over a 12 year period. That's like 3 a fucking day. It's insane. One group has the stated goal to destroy the other. And they act on that goal. All the fucking time. This isn't hard. Hamas is complete and utter bullshit. And anyone who tries to equivocate is fucking dumb.

The ONLY way out of this mess is for the international community to come down hard on Hamas. But with so many people parroting Hamas talking points these days, that isn't about to happen.
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It must be easy to live your life when everything is so readily reduced to black and white
 
Posting it here too. 15 dead as Israeli army shells as UN school in Gaza. Not that shelling a school should EVER be defensible, but this was a UN school, whose coordinates were supplied to the Israeli army, and it didn't have any rockets being fired from it.

A school. SCHOOL.

3 UN teachers among the 15 (and rising) dead.


Richard Engel ‏@RichardEngel 49m
 UNRWA spox: Over the course of the day UNRWA tried 2 coodinate with the Israeli Army a window for civilians 2 leave & it was never granted”.
UNRWA spokesman, “Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter in Beit Hanoun had been formally given to the Israeli army”



If you defend shit like this, then fuck you a little bit.
 
Robert Turner, the UNRWA director in Gaza, said there was no warning from the Israelis about the attack on the school in Beit Hanoun.
 
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