Updates to the Joel?

A couple of years ago, there was a very good and quite candid interview with Dr. Gene Hooks regarding the basketball situation, the temporary move to Greensboro and how the LJVM Coliseum came about.
I think Stan did the interview. Can't recall. I think it was "Lunch With Stan" or something along those lines. I'm sure it can be found on the Interwebs.

Bottom line... it was about our only option, at that time, as explained by Dr. Hooks, to avoid being the laughing stock of the ACC due to our barn for a venue. So, some context does matter. Doesn't hurt.

Am I in favor of a new arena with monorail and prime rib courtside? Well, yes. Yes, I am.

Imo the biggest thing that the Joel misses other than having a 3,000 too many seats is that the fans are so far from the court. Arenas and stadiums with good atmospheres across different sports have fans on top of the playing field/court. Madison Square Garden is this way with very steep seating bowls. The Joel stands are very far from the court and the second deck is virtually in a different zip code. In a perfect world where money isn't an issue I would love for us to build a 10,000 seat arena with large, steep lower decks and a small upper deck with boxes that hangs over part of the lower deck, trapping noise and adding to the atmosphere.

BBDeac said:

Upstairs still has teal seats

Click to expand...

What would it cost to replace those f$$king monkey vomit green seats with black ones? The old green and black. It’s hideous and has been for 33 years.

Tobacco Road said:

But our biggest donors have met to discuss how they make wake athletics elite. I think they want the best product more than they want a seat in a specific location. We can do DR’s design and still have a premium spot for the big money boosters to experience and even better environment.

Click to expand...

Can and will those donors be willing to foot the bill for the entire thing especially after what they just dropped for the practice facilities and locker rooms? Those guys are all getting things for those big donations. The more people you have to bring in to cover the cost the more things you have to give out which in the context of a basketball arena means the best seats. It would be fantastic if the whole thing could be taken care of by the mega donors so they only have to take care of a few people.

I would love us to model a new arena after James Madison's new arena, with maybe a 10,500 capacity instead of their 8,500. Built with a adjacent parking garage and what looks like a welcome center or hall of fame type facility, the total price tag for JMU was around $139million. They started construction after an initial fundraising campaign of $12million. I am not 100% certain, but I think it is likely that our endowment and financial clout is significantly greater than JMU's. If an initial investment that small is what is needed to get the ball rolling I am confident we can reach and surpass that and pull money from our greater AD and overall budget. If we could do this project within the $150million range and in the next 3-7 years that would set us up excellently for a long future in a purpose built arena. Surely we could afford, and should be willing to spend, on this investment. If JMU can recognize the need for an updated basketball facility, I think it is time Wake Forest in the ACC does as well especially in what should be a new and exciting era. I attached an article with info and pictures on JMU's arena. Let's secure the future of our program with a major investment in facilities. It will surely help keep our outstanding coach here for the long hall and reinvigorate our program and community.

https://newsvirginian.com/sports/du...cle_e84f20f0-2473-11eb-a302-7339d60e38a7.html

I think it is likely that there is already a certain amount of money set aside for Joel improvement or replacement given the rumors that have been circulating for years and the rumor that if it wasn't for covid we would already be in the process of upgrading. Additionally, I am sure big boosters and Deacon Club members alike would help raise a significant portion of the funds necessary. Mit Shah himself donated $5million for the practice facility. Surely we have other wealthy donors who could make similarly significant donations. Additionally, given recent comps including the aforementioned JMU selling the naming rights for their arena for $2.5million, it is reasonable to expect Wake to be able to offset $3-5million of the cost by selling the naming rights to a corporate sponsor. Finally, while difficult to project, it is reasonable to expect ticket sales and revenue would increase in a brand new, modern, purpose built arena, and this increase in revenue would offset some of the expense. Imo the time is right to upgrade and the right move is a new arena, or a significant and all encompassing renovation that addresses the need for capacity changes and bringing fans closer to the court. Would so much rather us be intentional with our planning and address this issue now during a transformational period for the program than continue to play in an aging and cavernous arena, paying for upkeep and small improvements year after year.

The outside of the JMU arena is hideous. The interior is well-done, if not a bit bland, in pictures. Curious to know what it looks like in person.

Would love a brick exterior to be aligned with the WF campus architecture. Throw some magnolias on the outside, felt banners in the rafters and some HOF shadow boxes inside. Don't overdo the video/scoreboard.

Classic aesthetics for inspiration:

Butler - Hinkle Fieldhouse


Penn - The Palestra


Fordham - Rose Hill Gymnasium

I do love Hinkle and all its history, but I really think a JMU type design with fans close to the court is where we need to go. These three gyms you've posted are just that, gyms, whereas I think Wake will be building a modern arena more in line with the other division 1 basketball arenas built in the past 10 years. JMU's new arena and Xavier's Cintas Center are two I'd have marked down as inspirations for a future arena. DePaul's Wintrust Arena is also great although of course with them it's mostly empty by February following their annual collapse in Big East play. Even Elon's new arena adjusted for a larger capacity sounds great to me. The Schar Center at Elon cost only $20million when it was built a few years ago, and while its capacity and facilities aren't quite the same as what Wake needs, it proves how affordable this can be if done right. Somewhere in the $50million to $100million range seems more than enough to build us the perfect home court advantage based on the comps I've researched. Currie has risen to every challenge thrown his way as AD so far and I am confident he will find a way to fix this problem as well.

Spending $40-$100 million to get a somewhat nicer place to play basketball in Winston Salem is ridiculous. Spend that $40-$100 million on sponsorship deals instead now that paying players is legal.

stugotz said:

Spending $40-$100 million to get a somewhat nicer place to play basketball in Winston Salem is ridiculous. Spend that $40-$100 million on sponsorship deals instead now that paying players is legal.

Click to expand...

I see one as a sustainable, foundational investment in the future of our program and athletic department, and the other a head scratcher that violates NCAA rules. A nice arena with a solid atmosphere would help recruiting for many years to come, just as it would help with ticket sales, fan enjoyment/engagement, and a host of other things.

Lol.

For those who have actually been to JMU’s new place, it has many great things including open concourses, quick tilt/pitch up, and excellent size (for us).

However, it does not have student risers on the floor between the baskets and now, because it wasn’t designed for such, it never will, This is a major weakness of the place and the main differentiating factor between good college gyms and unworkable ones.

Students are the lifeblood of the action in the building and on TV. Even 500 front and center makes all the difference. Behind the basket is just no good.

WFcatamount22 said:

Having a smaller arena on campus would be dope tho. Times have changed and it’s going to be hard for us to get 14,000 people to a game again. We need a better environment if we want to keep Forbes. Hell even keep Forbes for next season would be an accomplishment.

Click to expand...

OR we put and extra $2M right in his pocket for a lot cheaper than a new building.

Hinkle is NOT a gym.

I have an idea: buy the fertilizer plant site. It's clearly close enough to campus, presently I suspect it is quite available, and build an all-brick 10,000 seat arena with one luxury box (Donald Ross, obviously).

Alternate location: Get the checkbook out and make a 100 year investment by buying the Parkway Ford site contiguous to campus and bracketed on the other side by Putters. Direct access to a divided highway, yet walking distance to campus. Doesn't cut into current footprint.

Then level the Joel and turn it into an engineering school. Profit.

WFcatamount22 said:

Having a smaller arena on campus would be dope tho. Times have changed and it’s going to be hard for us to get 14,000 people to a game again. We need a better environment if we want to keep Forbes. Hell even keep Forbes for next season would be an accomplishment.

Click to expand...

Forbes has found a home at Wake. He's tight with Currie, since their days at tenn.

Just keep winning. As Forbes has said himself..... winning solves all problems. :thumbsup:

Ball State Deac said:

Hinkle is NOT a gym.

Click to expand...

If you are trying to criticize Hinkle, I’m gonna have to speak up. Sure Hinkle is too big for Butler. But it is the historical blood vessel of the Butler campus. Also reversing the Court did great with the atmosphere and created on top of the action seats behind the goal. You can’t build old and history and Hinkle has it all. Also, WF alum Graham Honaker has done an amazing job with the concourse and hospitality venues which don’t impact the classic Hinkle look. Much like Fenway and Cameron, these new areas are critical to enjoyment but more importantly aren’t visible during the action. Seizing the historic and treasured venue, Honaker has raised millions for Butler at a time they have generally sucked.

Should we copy Hinkle at Wake? Of course not. The design is horrible for Wake due to size and seating structure. You can’t build that history anyway. But don’t attack one of sports’ grand cathedrals. Butler would be foolish to scrap their “gem.”

donaldross said:

If you are trying to criticize Hinkle, I’m gonna have to speak up. Sure Hinkle is too big for Butler. But it is the historical blood vessel of the Butler campus. Also reversing the Court did great with the atmosphere and created on top of the action seats behind the goal. You can’t build old and history and Hinkle has it all. Also, WF alum Graham Honaker has done an amazing job with the concourse and hospitality venues which don’t impact the classic Hinkle look. Much like Fenway and Cameron, these new areas are critical to enjoyment but more importantly aren’t visible during the action. Seizing the historic and treasured venue, Honaker has raised millions for Butler at a time they have generally sucked.

Should we copy Hinkle at Wake? Of course not. The design is horrible for Wake due to size and seating structure. You can’t build that history anyway. But don’t attack one of sports’ grand cathedrals. Butler would be foolish to scrap their “gem.”

Click to expand...

Not critical. A poster referred to it as “just a gym”. It’s far from that.

Heck, Hinkle is so iconic that the colts used a similar design and build a field house.

So hinkle used to seat 15k and has been renovated to under 10 k