Manning's lineups and subs

[Why the Deac Not]

I think it's a combination of something lacking in our talent pool and opponents who are very proficient at producing open looks. And they can knock down those open looks (as opposed to our iffy shooting).

Seems like for the longest time that our teams and players have suffered from a lack of overall awareness to what the other team wants to do. And then the majority of our players just don't seem to have a good knack for anticipating what the other team is going to do. Now some of that can be an extension of coaching philosophy (don't take unnecessary chances, don't over-commit and be sound and rebound), but either we're not recruiting the players who have an intrinsic knack for good defense or we've had so much upheaval and discord in our BB program since 2009 that we cannot seem to put forth a consistent semblance of defense IQ and full team buy-in on what the coaches want to do.

 

[Why the Deac Not]

McClinton will be a garbage man for us. If he can grab boards and just get putbacks/layups then he will be an asset.

His defense is also subpar too.

Does anyone on this current team play or know how to play better than sub-par D?? Seems like fundamentally we are lacking in that area big time. I guess CMM and at times Hudson and G-Mc due to their length? I've never really been impressed with DT's defensive chops as he is athletic enough to make some shift plays in the lane, but he doesn't seem to have the most adroit feet in the defensive post, especially on help plays. But then again, our team has lacked weak-side help D for years now.

 

[Deacsfan27]

Does anyone on this current team play or know how to play better than sub-par D?? Seems like fundamentally we are lacking in that area big time. I guess CMM and at times Hudson and G-Mc due to their length? I've never really been impressed with DT's defensive chops as he is athletic enough to make some shift plays in the lane, but he doesn't seem to have the most adroit feet in the defensive post, especially on help plays. But then again, our team has lacked weak-side help D for years now.

Codi is pretty good.

Devin can play some at times.

Moore and Collins are both legit good from what I have seen

I've never been impressed with Wilbekin or McClinton.

Dinos is just bad

 

[Johndeac]

I asked some questions about Manning's coaching to the Tulsa message boards. Here are their responses:

http://tulsa.forums.rivals.com/threads/coach-manning.6518/#post-70070

Consensus seems to be that they were happy with Manning's game management, happy with defensive improvements, and relatively unhappy with his recruiting. They seem to feel as though he never actually wanted to be at Tulsa very badly and was just trying to do well enough to get a new job. They seem unhappy to have seen him go, but more so bitter about it.

 

[Buttermaker]

I asked some questions about Manning's coaching to the Tulsa message boards. Here are their responses:

http://tulsa.forums.rivals.com/threads/coach-manning.6518/#post-70070

Consensus seems to be that they were happy with Manning's game management, happy with defensive improvements, and relatively unhappy with his recruiting. They seem to feel as though he never actually wanted to be at Tulsa very badly and was just trying to do well enough to get a new job. They seem unhappy to have seen him go, but more so bitter about it.

"always thought his in game coaching was a strength of his, particularly when it came to switching defenses (man to zone, vice versa etc...) at the right time. We really improved defensively under Manning, a lot of our current roster became great defenders under his watch."

Interesting.

 

[Why the Deac Not]

Df27 - I do hope you're right about Moore and Collins defensively. You've probably seen at least 3 of their games where as I've only seen one (last night). They certainly have the physical tools (athleticism, quickness and length) to be very disruptive on D, but I fear that DM is deferring to DT and Dinos too much out of fear that he might create malcontents if they don't get their minutes. And you would think that, if DM sees the potential in JC/DM as defensive assets, then he would give them longer stretches to prove it and not worry about the repercussions of sensitive egos.

As much as I would love to have Dinos for another year, wouldn't getting more players involved to bolster their confidence to foster a hopefully winning attitude be better for everyone, including Dinos? If anything, the DM tough love train should have a special seat reserved for Dinos, who may have NBA potential if he can actually apply what Danny is hopefully teaching.

 

[DCDeac]

The only knock on Devin is he's undersized at the 5 and can be inconsistent at times. He's put up big defensive efforts against guys like Okafor and rebounds the hell out of the ball. CMM is physical and Hudson has length and was improving quickly last year. I consider them all solid but not elite defensively. Our only elite defender on the ball was Madison Jones but he's gone (and was terrible offensively).

On the negative side, Wilbekin is physically limited and can't really challenge shooters with any length. That's unlikely to change. McClinton seems extremely hesitant in his rotations, gets lost on defense, and is a step slower than he needs to be. He's basically stuck in a place where he's not strong enough to play inside and not quick enough to play outside. Dinos is extremely slow laterally and can't stay in front of anyone, but his length saves him at times. His decision making and court awareness is just awful at times, hopefully that will improve dramatically.

The freshmen all have potential but they are really struggling to adjust to the college game and the new rules all at once. Moore is leading the country in moving screens, Crawford has to play lots of minutes and therefore has to be extremely tentative. In the last couple games Collins is on pace to foul out in about 25 minutes of play. Moore would foul out in 13 minutes.

It's really not all that surprising to see us struggling defensively. We really need the freshmen to catch on quickly with Codi out for so long.

 

[Rolfe]

A bigger question. Who, in their right mind, is boarding a plane to Hawaii to watch more of this?

I'm en route right now. Maui for Thanksgiving, and if I get motivated to leave the beach there's the added bonus of watching Wake for $10 a mile away. Don't think Wake/SJU is going to be a hot ticket.

 

[marquee moon]

The only knock on Devin is he's undersized at the 5 and can be inconsistent at times. He's put up big defensive efforts against guys like Okafor and rebounds the hell out of the ball. CMM is physical and Hudson has length and was improving quickly last year. I consider them all solid but not elite defensively. Our only elite defender on the ball was Madison Jones but he's gone (and was terrible offensively).

On the negative side, Wilbekin is physically limited and can't really challenge shooters with any length. That's unlikely to change. McClinton seems extremely hesitant in his rotations, gets lost on defense, and is a step slower than he needs to be. He's basically stuck in a place where he's not strong enough to play inside and not quick enough to play outside. Dinos is extremely slow laterally and can't stay in front of anyone, but his length saves him at times. His decision making and court awareness is just awful at times, hopefully that will improve dramatically.

The freshmen all have potential but they are really struggling to adjust to the college game and the new rules all at once. Moore is leading the country in moving screens, Crawford has to play lots of minutes and therefore has to be extremely tentative. In the last couple games Collins is on pace to foul out in about 25 minutes of play. Moore would foul out in 13 minutes.

It's really not all that surprising to see us struggling defensively. We really need the freshmen to catch on quickly with Codi out for so long.

Do you work for the AD?

 

[TownieDeac]

The freshmen all have potential but they are really struggling to adjust to the college game and the new rules all at once.

No they aren't.

 

[DCDeac]

No they aren't.

 

[DeacDownUnder]

He'll get more PT at Marshall.

 

[TownieDeac]

Bryant Crawford is struggling to adapt to the college game? Box score lying to me, as is the eye test, then.

Moore, obviously, is a bit of a project.

But even your boy Manning says it's not Collins development or adjustment to the pace that's lacking, it's just that he's PF3 in his stupid system.

 

[DeacDownUnder]

I'm en route right now. Maui for Thanksgiving, and if I get motivated to leave the beach there's the added bonus of watching Wake for $10 a mile away. Don't think Wake/SJU is going to be a hot ticket.

I'm envious. Will be some good teams out there. Vanderbilt was lights out last season from 3 pt. land and has added two more long range bombers (a transfer from Cornell and a freshman from Kentucky).

 

[DCDeac]

Bryant Crawford is struggling to adapt to the college game? Box score lying to me, as is the eye test, then.

Moore, obviously, is a bit of a project.

But even your boy Manning says it's not Collins development or adjustment to the pace that's lacking, it's just that he's PF3 in his stupid system.

We're talking defensively. Crawford almost fouled out of his first 2 games and all 3 have, in every game, thrown up hands in disbelief at calls, overreacted and gone back and forth with Manning about calls, and all of them have foul rates that can not currently support extended minutes.

You can't seriously be arguing this. Look at their foul per minute averages. Of course they are going through an adjustment period defensively.

 

[Wrangor]

Just finished watching the game on ESPNOcho. Substitution patterns were baffling. I have no idea how O'Brien gets in the game, much less how VAnHorn played almost 30 minutes. Just crazy. We could have won that game with a proper rotation IMO. Hopefully Manning learns from it. The tape will make it very obvious that VanHorn can't guard the perimeter, and that neither VanHorn nor OBrien offer anything offensively. Hudson and CMM returning should take care of VAnHorn's minutes but it is still baffling that he played so much last night when he was so clearly outmatched. Would have been much better going with Collins at the three. Collins was getting abused defensively as well, but at least he was a spark on the offensive end.

 

[TownieDeac]

We're talking defensively. Crawford almost fouled out of his first 2 games and all 3 have, in every game, thrown up hands in disbelief at calls, overreacted and gone back and forth with Manning about calls, and all of them have foul rates that can not currently support extended minutes.

You can't seriously be arguing this. Look at their foul per minute averages. Of course they are going through an adjustment period defensively.

YOU cannot seriously be arguing this.

For one, Crawford played 38 minutes last night.

For two, WTF difference does it make if they're on the bench because they're being intentionally sat vs on the bench fouled out after getting those minutes?

For three, how do you think they learn how to adjust to the college game? From the bench?

 

[Why the Deac Not]

Perhaps the foul rates are what is most concerning to Manning and he is pulling the big men frosh right after a bad foul (frustration foul for instance) or fouls in short spans to keep them from getting too frustrated. You certainly want them to be aggressive when they are in the game, and perhaps he doesn't want them getting too demoralized early on even though now is the time to get them as much run as possible so they'll be ready for more important minutes later in the season.

Don't think anyone expects JC to play 30 mins a game yet -- well maybe a couple of y'all ;-) -- but it seems rather obvious that he should be getting at least an additional 4-6 mins at least. Even if fouling is an issue. Might as well get on the job training so to speak when it comes to learning these new rules.

 

[Deacsfan27]

Df27 - I do hope you're right about Moore and Collins defensively. You've probably seen at least 3 of their games where as I've only seen one (last night). They certainly have the physical tools (athleticism, quickness and length) to be very disruptive on D, but I fear that DM is deferring to DT and Dinos too much out of fear that he might create malcontents if they don't get their minutes. And you would think that, if DM sees the potential in JC/DM as defensive assets, then he would give them longer stretches to prove it and not worry about the repercussions of sensitive egos.

As much as I would love to have Dinos for another year, wouldn't getting more players involved to bolster their confidence to foster a hopefully winning attitude be better for everyone, including Dinos? If anything, the DM tough love train should have a special seat reserved for Dinos, who may have NBA potential if he can actually apply what Danny is hopefully teaching.

If Danny Manning were worried tremendously about interior defense then Collins would be in there now starting.

I expect him to start as the year goes on. He is a better all-around player inside than Dinos, but obviously doesn't stretch the defense much.

One of my biggest concerns is how Manning will mix Thomas and Collins as the year goes along. I think it will become clear that they have to be on the court at the same time, but for some reason right now DM is viewing Collins as bringing the same things to the table as Devin. I disagree with that assessment tremendously. Obviously they have similar skillets in terms of rebounding and scoring the ball, but I think there is plenty of room for them both in the game. Devin can move out of the pain a bit and attack, while Collins remains inside.

That will stretch the defense in itself.

Once again, and some agree with me, I think Dinos should and will see his minutes decline as the year goes on. His defense is really, really bad, and it's not just on-ball, it's in rotations, and his lateral foot speed is just not where it needs to be. I think Dinos, Thomas, and Collins can all be on the court at the same time, but it doesn't seem like Manning likes going with a three big look.

 

[Deacsfan27]

YOU cannot seriously be arguing this.

For one, Crawford played 38 minutes last night.

For two, WTF difference does it make if they're on the bench because they're being intentionally sat vs on the bench fouled out after getting those minutes?

For three, how do you think they learn how to adjust to the college game? From the bench?

This is another conversation for another time, but I strongly disagree with any coach that benches a player for two fouls in the first half so they don't get their third foul. I want them to play through it and learn to play without fouling. If you foul out it's on you. You can't just save players for the end game if you need them while the game is slipping away in the first half (speaking hypothetically, not last night).