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Manning's lineups and subs

TownieDeac said:
I was certainly wrong to use the word "indefensible" in the OP. Plenty of defending, apparently.
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I don't think he was defending. I think he was trying to figure out any possible reason for minutes that defied reason.
 
I understand TVH playing when either Wilbekin or Crawford are out. That makes sense to me. I even understand him being one of the people to give McClinton some rest (the others being JC and Doral, in bigger lineup looks). I even think that TVH should continue to get 10-12 minutes per game when Hudson comes back next week.

The O'Brien stuff, and the McClinton < TVH stuff, yeah, I don't get it. Some of the stuff that DC is saying makes sense. I agree that Manning is probably a hardass who punishes in game mistakes with bench time, and I agree that he probably likes TVH as a safe option that plays within himself and doesn't make a bunch of egregious, low-IQ plays. I also agree that Manning probably has to be seeing the same things that we're all seeing when these lineups aren't working. I just don't think that any of those ideas lead to the conclusion that DC thinks they do, that Manning's late-game sub patterns are part of some greater plan, or that he values lessons over a win for a team that I have to believe he thinks is going to be in the bubble conversation five months from now.

I really wish, like FckVwls and Doofus, that Manning would be a little more abstract or creative in his lineup formations. That would go a long way towards fixing all of these problems. Even just a quick look at something like JC/DT/Moore on the floor at once would be a nice change of pace. Obviously we're working with small sample sizes, but I think that JC would have the quickness to guard opposing 3s, at least in flashes. I dunno, maybe I'm off there.
 
My biggest problem/fear is this: Wake hired a young head coach with very little HC experience. He then proceeded to fill his staff with other young guys, none of which have any significant HC experience. That is fine- you go with youth based upon the idea that the young guys are the best recruiters, and that an influx of talent can overcome any development and game-management deficiencies that will be corrected by on-the-job experience.

That is fine, except for the fact that the staff appears to be putting together a roster that requires them to out-develop and out coach the rest of the ACC.

Coach Manning's game management was a problem last year. His team's defensive performance was a problem last year. Neither of those have changed. While we were hopeful that the 2015 class was a good starter class and a precursor to a great 2016 class, the 2016 class is average.

So if he isn't knocking the cover off the ball recruiting, and he is not doing a great job of making the team play above its talent level during the games, then what is he going to do well?
 
With Crawford, Mitch, Woods, and B-Chill next year, at least we won't be talking about a walk on getting minutes. We will be somewhat "deep" next year at every position, and yes, deep is used pretty loose here in terms of proven talent.
 
PhDeac said:
I don't think he was defending. I think he was trying to figure out any possible reason for minutes that defied reason.
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Thanks - yes that's what I mean. In pretty much all of my posts I expressed doubt and concern about the strategy. I just don't buy the idea that he is some kind of idiot with no strategy at all, and it's also just the 3rd game of the season so I imagine the freshmen are not all that flexible when it comes to playing out of position.

Manning was obviously very angry about the players ignoring the scouting report and leaving guys open. For all we know McClinton's slow closeouts (he had a high number of them) pissed off Manning but VanHorn drew no such ire so he stayed on the floor. People are also blowing McClinton's play out of proportion. He missed all of his free throws and had zero defensive boards. His points were almost entirely hanging around the basket and having Crawford set him up with a no-look pass or tapping back in a miss when his man doubled Devin. Still better than VanHorn but he wasn't some gamebreaking difference maker.
 
RedSoxFaithful said:
I understand TVH playing when either Wilbekin or Crawford are out. That makes sense to me. I even understand him being one of the people to give McClinton some rest (the others being JC and Doral, in bigger lineup looks). I even think that TVH should continue to get 10-12 minutes per game when Hudson comes back next week.

The O'Brien stuff, and the McClinton < TVH stuff, yeah, I don't get it. Some of the stuff that DC is saying makes sense. I agree that Manning is probably a hardass who punishes in game mistakes with bench time, and I agree that he probably likes TVH as a safe option that plays within himself and doesn't make a bunch of egregious, low-IQ plays. I also agree that Manning probably has to be seeing the same things that we're all seeing when these lineups aren't working. I just don't think that any of those ideas lead to the conclusion that DC thinks they do, that Manning's late-game sub patterns are part of some greater plan, or that he values lessons over a win for a team that I have to believe he thinks is going to be in the bubble conversation five months from now.

I really wish, like FckVwls and Doofus, that Manning would be a little more abstract or creative in his lineup formations. That would go a long way towards fixing all of these problems. Even just a quick look at something like JC/DT/Moore on the floor at once would be a nice change of pace. Obviously we're working with small sample sizes, but I think that JC would have the quickness to guard opposing 3s, at least in flashes. I dunno, maybe I'm off there.
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Hell even slide Dinos down to the three and go Dinos/Devin/Collins. Dino's can't defend his guy anyway, so in that case why don't you just zone for 4-5 possessions and see what they can do offensively.
 
DCDeac said:
Thanks - yes that's what I mean. In pretty much all of my posts I expressed doubt and concern about the strategy. I just don't buy the idea that he is some kind of idiot with no strategy at all, and it's also just the 3rd game of the season so I imagine the freshmen are not all that flexible when it comes to playing out of position.

Manning was obviously very angry about the players ignoring the scouting report and leaving guys open. For all we know McClinton's slow closeouts (he had a high number of them) pissed off Manning but VanHorn drew no such ire so he stayed on the floor. People are also blowing McClinton's play out of proportion. He missed all of his free throws and had zero defensive boards. His points were almost entirely hanging around the basket and having Crawford set him up with a no-look pass or tapping back in a miss when his man doubled Devin. Still better than VanHorn but he wasn't some gamebreaking difference maker.
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McClinton will be a garbage man for us. If he can grab boards and just get putbacks/layups then he will be an asset.

His defense is also subpar too.
 
I've taken the stance of being very patient with Clawson and Manning, both stepped into the shit left by their predecessors, but last night was the first time I've come away with major concerns about either. The substitutions and lineups made no sense to me at all. The only thing I can come up with and it's been mentioned I'm sure is that Manning is using the early season to get minutes for a bunch of guys and then when we're at full strength, shorten the bench a lot. Even it that be the case, last night made no sense. It will be interesting to see how the minutes are allocated in Maui, especially if Hudson is back.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
McClinton will be a garbage man for us. If he can grab boards and just get putbacks/layups then he will be an asset.

His defense is also subpar too.
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Needs to improve his free throw shooting, he can be a guy that gets to the line, but it doesn't help much unless you're making 70+ percent.
 
Deacsfan27 said:
Hell even slide Dinos down to the three and go Dinos/Devin/Collins. Dino's can't defend his guy anyway, so in that case why don't you just zone for 4-5 possessions and see what they can do offensively.
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Yeah, see, I hesitate with this.

I don't believe that Dinos "can't defend his position," and I think there's something to the idea that he's been having to play behind the three worst defensive guards we have. He's still pretty bad defensively, especially on high screens, but I don't think he's a sieve when he's allowed to stick to a big man with Codi or Hudson in the lineup. On a related note: Crawford and Wilbekin need to make pretty big strides on that end of the floor this year.

If you're going to play Dinos at the 3, though, yeah, you definitely need to switch to zone. I think you MIGHT be able to get away with M2M with Collins at the 3, but I don't know if it would be sustainable.
 
Punishing Crab by playing VH makes zero sense. Rewarding McClinton would be a bigger punishment for Crab since Greg is the guy that would actually be taking Crab's minutes later in the season. Unless there is evidence in practices that VH is better during end of game situations Manning's subbing and minutes management really makes little sense, to me. It is beginning to take a lot of faith and evidence denial to continue defending Manning. So far he looks like just an ok recruiter and a below average in game coach. You can get away with one if you're great at the other but being just ok at both is serious cause for concern.
 
DCDeac said:
Look at last year - first 3 games we had 10 guys with well-distributed double digit minutes even in a loss to Arkansas. By the end of the year it was mostly an 8 man rotation with 4 players getting 30+ when not in foul trouble.
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Yep...did the same thing last year. Will probably do it next year too. It's pretty obvious he plays to be good at the end of the year and develop players early on.
 
Anybody feel like putting together +/-?
 
Trying to embed with code from the SCACCHoops website but having trouble doing so.

Here are the +/- on the lineups though for last night too.


Wake Forest
Lineup +/- *
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - Grant O'Brien - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Trent VanHorn 4
Bryant Crawford - John Collins - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Mitchell Wilbekin - Trent VanHorn 3
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - Greg McClinton - John Collins - Mitchell Wilbekin 2
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - Grant O'Brien - Greg McClinton - Trent VanHorn 2
Bryant Crawford - Doral Moore - Greg McClinton - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Trent VanHorn 2
Bryant Crawford - Doral Moore - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Mitchell Wilbekin - Trent VanHorn 1
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - John Collins - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Trent VanHorn 1
Bryant Crawford - Doral Moore - John Collins - Mitchell Wilbekin - Trent VanHorn -2
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - John Collins - Mitchell Wilbekin - Trent VanHorn -2
Bryant Crawford - Doral Moore - Grant O'Brien - Greg McClinton - Trent VanHorn -3
Greg McClinton - John Collins - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Mitchell Wilbekin - Trent VanHorn -3
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - Greg McClinton - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Mitchell Wilbekin -4
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - Greg McClinton - John Collins - Trent VanHorn -4
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - Greg McClinton - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Trent VanHorn -6
Bryant Crawford - Devin Thomas - Konstantinos Mitoglou - Mitchell Wilbekin - Trent VanHorn -7
 
RedSoxFaithful said:
Yeah, see, I hesitate with this.

I don't believe that Dinos "can't defend his position," and I think there's something to the idea that he's been having to play behind the three worst defensive guards we have. He's still pretty bad defensively, especially on high screens, but I don't think he's a sieve when he's allowed to stick to a big man with Codi or Hudson in the lineup. On a related note: Crawford and Wilbekin need to make pretty big strides on that end of the floor this year.

If you're going to play Dinos at the 3, though, yeah, you definitely need to switch to zone. I think you MIGHT be able to get away with M2M with Collins at the 3, but I don't know if it would be sustainable.
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I think we put Collins on Hass against Bucknell for a couple of possessions. Think he could hold his own for a few, lateral foot speed and fatigue would play a big problem.
 
DeaconSig said:
My biggest problem/fear is this: Wake hired a young head coach with very little HC experience. He then proceeded to fill his staff with other young guys, none of which have any significant HC experience. That is fine- you go with youth based upon the idea that the young guys are the best recruiters, and that an influx of talent can overcome any development and game-management deficiencies that will be corrected by on-the-job experience.

That is fine, except for the fact that the staff appears to be putting together a roster that requires them to out-develop and out coach the rest of the ACC.

Coach Manning's game management was a problem last year. His team's defensive performance was a problem last year. Neither of those have changed. While we were hopeful that the 2015 class was a good starter class and a precursor to a great 2016 class, the 2016 class is average.

So if he isn't knocking the cover off the ball recruiting, and he is not doing a great job of making the team play above its talent level during the games, then what is he going to do well?
Click to expand...
This is a good post.
 
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