Manning's lineups and subs

[DCDeac]

YOU cannot seriously be arguing this.

For one, Crawford played 38 minutes last night.

For two, WTF difference does it make if they're on the bench because they're being intentionally sat vs on the bench fouled out after getting those minutes?

For three, how do you think they learn how to adjust to the college game? From the bench?

I have no idea what you're arguing here. I never said anything about not playing them. You're responding to a critique of our defensive ability where I noted the freshmen are likely to improve as they adjust both to playing against college-level competition and the new freedom-of-movement rule emphasis.

Simply watching their reactions on defense during games is enough to easily prove what should be a very simple point. It's laughable to argue they don't have to adapt or that they haven't struggled defensively so far.

 

[Deacsfan27]

FWIW, I watched Collins a fair amount last night and one of the things that I was impressed with was his ability to be where he needed to be for rebounds and help defense.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not necessarily well-versed on defense.

 

[TownieDeac]

I have no idea what you're arguing here. I never said anything about not playing them.

um...

We're talking defensively. Crawford almost fouled out of his first 2 games and all 3 have, in every game, thrown up hands in disbelief at calls, overreacted and gone back and forth with Manning about calls, and all of them have foul rates that can not currently support extended minutes.

our worst two defenders are dinos and mitchell

our team defense needs work, and every player needs to adjust to the freedom of movement emphasis

but we've yet to foul out a player and we're restricting freshmen minutes because...?

 

[DCDeac]

FWIW, I watched Collins a fair amount last night and one of the things that I was impressed with was his ability to be where he needed to be for rebounds and help defense.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not necessarily well-versed on defense.

He was also the only player to block a shot on a 3 point closeout. I think Crawford and Collins have it in them to become borderline elite defenders, it's just going to take some time. Look at the Bucknell game - Crawford tried to fight over high screens twice and was tagged with consecutive fouls on both plays. You could see his exasperation after the 2nd call - he had no idea why he was being whistled and almost lost his composure. Same with Moore leaning into guys when they're posting him up and JC with his hip-checks. In time they'll clean up those mistakes, but it won't be immediate.

 

[Deacsfan27]

He was also the only player to block a shot on a 3 point closeout. I think Crawford and Collins have it in them to become borderline elite defenders, it's just going to take some time. Look at the Bucknell game - Crawford tried to fight over high screens twice and was tagged with consecutive fouls on both plays. You could see his exasperation after the 2nd call - he had no idea why he was being whistled and almost lost his composure. Same with Moore leaning into guys when they're posting him up and JC with his hip-checks. In time they'll clean up those mistakes, but it won't be immediate.

So what are defenders supposed to do here? If they go low a guy shoots over. Guys have been taught to "fight through" screens their entire lives.

 

[DCDeac]

So what are defenders supposed to do here? If they go low a guy shoots over. Guys have been taught to "fight through" screens their entire lives.

Great question, and who knows. The new rules suck huge donkey dick and make the game borderline unplayable (and unwatchable) defensively.

I watched the Duke and Maryland games this week and neither were called anything like how the early games have been called (not just ours). Most coaches don't really believe this level of nonsense will continue into conference play, so I guess we'll see.

 

[diverdeac]

The college game now.

I would play two shot blockers in the box and three players at the three point line, and give up as many 15 foot jump shots as the other team wants to take.

 

[CreamyGoodness]

I like Dinos and appreciate everything he does for us. IF Collins can figure out how to play 30 minutes without fouling out, there's no reason he shouldn't start moving forward. He brings more to the table. If Dinos' shot is off, he's very complacent.

 

[Why the Deac Not]

One of my biggest concerns is how Manning will mix Thomas and Collins as the year goes along. I think it will become clear that they have to be on the court at the same time, but for some reason right now DM is viewing Collins as bringing the same things to the table as Devin. I disagree with that assessment tremendously. Obviously they have similar skillets in terms of rebounding and scoring the ball, but I think there is plenty of room for them both in the game. Devin can move out of the pain a bit and attack, while Collins remains inside. That will stretch the defense in itself.

Couldn't agree more! JC seems very good at protecting the ball when he gets it and DT has shown he can be very effective in the high-paint, not only driving on a slower guy but making a good dump-down pass. Let's hope the high/low game with those two really becomes our bread and butter along with dribble-drive penetration and kick-outs to Dinos, Mitch, Crab and Craw. Not to mention I'm looking forward to the Crab and Craw(fish) show simply for the nickname potential! Let's crack some shells!!

 

[Wrangor]

FWIW, I watched Collins a fair amount last night and one of the things that I was impressed with was his ability to be where he needed to be for rebounds and help defense.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not necessarily well-versed on defense.

Rebounds - YES. Defensive help - NO. Collins was all sorts of out of position last night several times. I think he will be a fine defender, but he needs a lot of refinement.

 

[Fuck Your Couch]

Even when we're at full strength, I'm worried about developing 5 man units that are comfortable playing together. There needs to be a chemistry and cohesion that develops in-game and in-season and Manning even last year subs a lot and subs irregularly. We need an established consistent rotation that can be tweaked occasionally for a specific match-up, not tweaked for every match-up of every second of every game.

 

[diverdeac]

Great question, and who knows. The new rules suck huge donkey dick and make the game borderline unplayable (and unwatchable) defensively.

I watched the Duke and Maryland games this week and neither were called anything like how the early games have been called (not just ours). Most coaches don't really believe this level of nonsense will continue into conference play, so I guess we'll see.

Duke and hand checking go hand and hand.

Seems that we will see much more zone if this rules bullshit keeps up.

 

[Lohengrin]

I would agree that we shouldn't discount the effect the new rules are having on our ability to play defense. The calls have been so ticky-tak that I've seen our guys just have to back way off.

 

[deac29]

Crawford and Wilbekin are getting abused off the dribble. That's the root of the defensive issues, coupled with slow rotations following the dribble penetration our guards are allowing.

Crawford has the athleticism to be at least an adequate defender. He's way too upright now when guarding the ball. He'll adjust. I suspect he's used to being so much more athletic than the guy he's guarding so he could get by with poor technique. Not at this level - even against the competition to date.

 

[PhDeac]

On the other hand, Richmond had to play defense too and we missed too many FTs.

 

[Buttermaker]

Anyone who argues the point that our freshman have struggled at times with the transition from HS to college isn't paying attention. That's typically what freshmen do. That doesn't mean they are not showing signs of very good play as well. Those scenarios are not mutually exclusive.

 

[DCDeac]

I like Dinos and appreciate everything he does for us. IF Collins can figure out how to play 30 minutes without fouling out, there's no reason he shouldn't start moving forward. He brings more to the table. If Dinos' shot is off, he's very complacent.

I think this is the biggest question Manning faces with the personnel. Devin and Codi are no-brainer starters. So is Crawford in my mind. The next 3 are Collins, Hudson, and Dinos - and you can only pick 2. Assuming Hudson is still in the "good but not great" zone similar to last year, you have two pretty legit 4's and you need one of them to play minutes at the 3. Maybe Collins is a better true 4 but Dinos stretches the floor and can take over games at times. Collins and Devin are likely going to struggle to play together since they're so similar. By ACC time Collins will likely be a better defender than Dinos.

My guess is that Collins is destined to be the 6th man this year just because of the team makeup. But he certainly has to start getting more minutes soon from somewhere.

 

[RacerDeac]

Yep...did the same thing last year. Will probably do it next year too. It's pretty obvious he plays to be good at the end of the year and develop players early on.

We ended last season with our worst losses: 46 point loss to UVA, a 43 point loss to Duke, and an 18 point loss to BC.

 

[Doggus]

If Danny Manning were worried tremendously about interior defense then Collins would be in there now starting.

I expect him to start as the year goes on. He is a better all-around player inside than Dinos, but obviously doesn't stretch the defense much.

One of my biggest concerns is how Manning will mix Thomas and Collins as the year goes along. I think it will become clear that they have to be on the court at the same time, but for some reason right now DM is viewing Collins as bringing the same things to the table as Devin. I disagree with that assessment tremendously. Obviously they have similar skillets in terms of rebounding and scoring the ball, but I think there is plenty of room for them both in the game. Devin can move out of the pain a bit and attack, while Collins remains inside.

That will stretch the defense in itself.

Once again, and some agree with me, I think Dinos should and will see his minutes decline as the year goes on. His defense is really, really bad, and it's not just on-ball, it's in rotations, and his lateral foot speed is just not where it needs to be. I think Dinos, Thomas, and Collins can all be on the court at the same time, but it doesn't seem like Manning likes going with a three big look.

I don't see how anyone can expect Collins to start for us. It won't happen. Our lineup would be:
CMM
Crawford
Hudson
Collins
Thomas

That's 1 consistent shooter at best. We'll always be much better served with 2 good shooters on the floor at all times to stretch the D. This wil lbe particularly true when CMM comes back.
The challenge will be to get better defense with who's on the floor at the time. Hudson and CMM are both upgrades in that area.

 

[DCDeac]

We ended last season with our worst losses: 46 point loss to UVA, a 43 point loss to Duke, and an 18 point loss to BC.

Now that's how you question Manning's coaching ability. No argument here - that UVA loss was some of the worst basketball I've ever seen. Some of those stats will be forever burned into my brain - 3 of our starters combined for 4 points on 5% shooting from the field. One of the rare games where statistically if you had a decent guard lob half court shots on every possession you would have scored more points.